Featured The Children whom God hath given me

Why was Peter given the vision of unclean animals three times in Acts 10?

Why Peter's astonishment that the spirit fell upon the Gentiles in Acts 10?

Why was Peter called onto the carpet for taking the gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 11?

 

I never even mentioned the name John Calvin in any of my posts. I am not even a Calvinist. Also, do you realize, besides the writes of the Bible, a man named Augustine also believed and wrote on the doctrines of grace who was born in AD 354?

 

BroJoe, DHK considers Augustine to be just as vile as John Calvin. Perhaps more so, he connects Augustine with the roots of Catholicism.

 

Brother KY,

I know he was influenced by Catholicism, but he did have some understanding of the doctrines of grace if one reads he writing this is clear, but I am sure DHK will disagree.

 

Because the Jews excluded the Gentiles not God. Peter carried his prejudice with Him for a while until God revealed to him that the Gentiles were included in His plan. Peter abandoned his prejudice from that point on. The other disciples/apostles except Paul had to be shown about their prejudice too and Peter in following God's command went to the Gentiles house.

 

Ya know what Larry, I try not to any more. After sparring with some of these folks about various things, Ive determined that it aint worth it. I do not cast aspersions at them (most of the time--LOL) but whats the point of arguing:smilewinkgrin:?

 

Brother Revmwc,

No, I do believe that there were saved people from the time of Adam to the time Jesus died. Ii like you, believe these people were born again and looking to the coming messiah. And yes like you said there were also people recorded in Acts who were born again prior to even hearing the gospel (thus disproving gospel regeneration), but brother RevMWC, what you must remember is that all those people in Acts that you can cite that were born again prior to hearing the gospel eventually do hear and believe the gospel preached by a gospel preacher prior to their death and each time this is recorded in the book of Acts. However, there is no example of a born again saint in Acts who dies never knowing that Jesus came, died for sin, and resurrected. I do believe God can and does reveal and teach who Jesus is and what he has done sovereignly to some independent of the gospel preacher through the voice of Jesus "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25) and "45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45), but I, unlike you, do not believe there were millions of people after the resurrection who did not know Jesus had come, died for their sins, and resurrected, but yet went to heaven because they were looking to a coming messiah. There is not an example of any such individuals in the New Testament. Also, you cannot give any historical references to prove your theory that the Indians knew that there would be a coming messiah prior to the arrival of Columbus. When the first missionaries came to them, when it was proclaimed that Jesus was the coming messiah this was all new and foreign news to all of them. I am glad you rejoined are thread Rev. I enjoy our discussions.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

No, it's apparent from Acts 11 that 'the eleven' did not perceive NON-JEWS to be included in 'the great commission', as you call it, but were still operating under the charge of Mt 10:

"Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

It's clear, those to whom were given 'the great commission', as you call it, did not perceive NON-JEWS to be included in it. What ‘the eleven’ DID know (and what mainstream Christianity woefully does not acknowledge), is the extent of the Dispersion of the Jews, it was throughout every nation under heaven, and it also presented the very conduit for the rapid spread of the gospel which was preached in all creation under heaven before the New Testament writings were even completed. Luke frames ‘the great commission’, as you call it, this way:

But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8

Take note Christ said, 'ye shall' receive power, 'ye shall' be my witnesses unto the end of the earth. Period. He didn't say I want you to try to do it, or to give it your best shot, He told them that they indeed would do it.

In the very next chapter Luke records:

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [RECEIVED POWER].......
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven [UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH].
6 .........every man heard them speaking in his own language [WITNESSES OF CHRIST]. Acts 2

Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. Acts 2:9-11

What do you think that those 'Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven' in Acts 2 did when they all went back home from the feast of Pentecost, after hearing and believing the gospel and themselves having received power from the Holy Spirit?

The preaching at Pentecost was a 'gospel bomb' that fulfilled Christ's words of Acts 1:8.

Yeah, Paul says of it:

Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:18

The ‘great commission’, as you call it, was given to the apostles and they accomplished it magnificently, just as Christ said they would.

 

Have you ever worked with the mentally challenged?

I have, I coached them in Special Olympics and there are different levels for the way they are challenged. Physical skills and mental skills work hand in hand with these beautiful people. My son participates although he is not severely challenged his is a reading comprehension problem. The people I coached were more severely challenged but they can learn and listen. Some can't talk others can talk and understand. So when you go with what about them you need to define how challenged they truly are.

Many can understand the gospel as a child can understand it and they can receive Christ by Faith. The more severely challenged is a different story but as infants are covered so too will the severely mentally challenged be.

Until Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they were innocent and not guilt in God's eyes. We are not told what they may have done in the Garden we are told that once they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they became guilty and were under sin.

So too must a person come to place of the knowledge of good and evil to become accountable for their sins. Infants - toddlers at some point in their life realized what is good and what is evil then they became accountable for their sin until then they like Adam and Eve are in innocence. The same with those too severely mentally challenged to ever understand good and evil they may never become accountable because of their mental capacity.

But as Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and became accountable eventually so too do most humans become accountable.

 

They were still in their sinful practice of prejudice and wanted to just go the the Jews but Christ had said go into all the world.

Christ taught it they didn't hear so the Lord showed it to Peter and the others repented of their prejudice and went into the world. Nathanael is believed to have gone into India to preach the word and teach them about Christ.

 

But I remain convinced that "the people" of Hebrews 2:9-17 refers to the descendants or offspring of Abraham, which in view of Galatians 3, refers to all believers whether Jew or Gentile. See Hebrews 5:3, 7:5, 7:27, and so forth.

Lets look at Hebrews 2:9: But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all (which includes the church), so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse, such as John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6 and Hebrews 2:9.

All mankind includes Everyone believing, and requires that He is propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, and that He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and tasted death for everyone.

And do not buy the smoke screen of those who obfuscate by claiming "limited atonement" refers to not everyone receives the reconciliation provided by the cross. The actual idea is Christ did not die for everyone, and that view is mistaken and unbiblical.

 

I pastor a church 40 miles from my home and am away from a computer and out of pocket on Sunday's.

A friend of mine wrote a song called "True Chief" about a chief who went to the top of a mountain and ask if there was more to the "True Chief" coming would the Great Father send. He sang it to American Indians and was told that was how it was, they believed and were looking for the "True Chief" who would be their savior.

 

ROFLOL, Calvinists misrepresent the views of other in post after post. Did anyone say the children of God are all mankind? Nope. So misdirection, obfuscation, the usual twaddle from those unconstrained by love of truth.

But I remain convinced that "the people" of Hebrews 2:9-17 refers to the descendants or offspring of Abraham, which in view of Galatians 3, refers to all believers whether Jew or Gentile. See Hebrews 5:3, 7:5, 7:27, and so forth.

Lets look at Hebrews 2:9: But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Folks, limited atonement is unbiblical and has no support in scripture. Christ died for the many, meaning everyone but Christ, and Christ died for all, meaning all mankind. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, meaning all mankind.

Yes Christ died for the church, but the church is part of all mankind, so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all (which includes the church), so Christ died both for the church and all mankind. Any other view must nullify verse after verse, such as John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6 and Hebrews 2:9.

All mankind includes Everyone believing, and requires that He is propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, and that He laid down His life as a ransom for all, and tasted death for everyone.

And do not buy the smoke screen of those who obfuscate by claiming "limited atonement" refers to not everyone receives the reconciliation provided by the cross. The actual idea is Christ did not die for everyone, and that view is mistaken and unbiblical.

 

This unbiblical denial of the fall will prevent you from coming to truth.All Sinned and died in Adam

That is why The children were given to Jesus by the Father.[/QUOTE]

First I never denied the fall of Adam and Eve, I said until they fell they were in innocence. Adam was guilty of grossly violating God's command, Genesis 2:16 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Notice the part in red Adam wasn't accountable wouldn't start dieing as long as he left the tree of the knowledge of good and evil alone. Once he ate of it death would come, the same with infants/toddlers and the severly mentally challenged until they come to the knowledge of good and evil they will not be held accountable for their sins if they die. Until you came to know the difference between good and evil you too were covered and would not have seen hell. Do you remember when you came to know the difference between good and evil what age were you? 5-6, 6-7 at some point you realized what was right and what was wrong till then you were not held accountable for your sin. Because part of salvation is repentance will you repent of something you don't know is wrong?

 

You read into the text your presuppositions and accuse them of prejudice when it's clear they acted as they believed they should, and were still following what they had been taught and shown:

28 and he said unto them, Ye yourselves know how it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to join himself or come unto one of another nation; and yet unto me hath God showed that I should not call any man common or unclean: Acts 10

3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. Acts 3

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 15

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt 10

When it was time to bring in His 'other sheep not of this fold', He did so, beginning with Cornelius in Acts 10.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

 

" This is one of the greatest fallacies of radical evangelism, to change the church from a 'sheep feeding' institution into a 'sheep making' one."
This is one of the most insidious errors of Calvinism.

A correct definition of a local church would be:
"An assembly of baptized regenerated believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper)."

Not only does the church have an obligation to feed the church (discipleship), it has an obligation to proclaim the gospel (evangelize). Neither one can be ignored.

At the time of his ascension Jesus said to the eleven:
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
--They were to be his witnesses throughout the entire world.

Now these eleven men traveled "A Sabbath's Day journey the next day, (about half a mile) to Jerusalem, and met up with the rest of the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem:

Acts 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Acts 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
--Note it wasn't just 11 men, but now about 120.
This commission was given to the 120. Do you think that the instruction just given a day earlier were kept quiet, or do you think that the apostles shared them with the church here and told them that this is what Jesus wanted them to do, especially in the light of them choosing the 12 apostle just a few verses later.
--It became the obligation of the entire church.
In chapter two, the next day, to these 120, 3,000 more were added. They too had the obligation of going into all the world and being a witness of Christ to all that they met. Thus the gospel was to spread to all.

Read where these people came from:
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

In fact, back in verse five, Luke records it in a more general sense:
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
--Many nations were represented. Out of the three thousand that were saved probably some from each nation. They then went back to their own respective nations and told others about Christ. Like the Ethiopian Eunuch, they did not stay in Jerusalem.

 

Our hilasterion (means of salvation) is not the lid of the ark of the covenant, it is Christ Himself. Our propitiation is Christ! Christ is the means of our salvation. Calvinism denies those who were not saved, were bought with Christ's blood.

In review, Christ is our propitiation or means of salvation. Christ died for all mankind, those who would be saved and those not saved. They were all bought by His blood, 2 Peter 2:1. Christ tasted death for everyone. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world of fallen mankind.