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THE CO-EQUALITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 21, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto Him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (Revelation 5:13-14)

    This is one of the strongest and clearest passages in the Holy Bible that speaks of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It also shows His equality with the Father, and further teaches that there are Two Persons in Scripture, Who are equally Almighty God. We read, "to Him Who (Gk, toi) sits on the throne, and to the (Gk, toi) Lamb". Where it is very clear from the Greek text, that two separate Persons are spoken of, God the Father, and God the Son (the Lamb).
    Verse 13 speaks of "every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them", which is nothing less than the entirety of the human race, "every created thing", with no exceptions. Here the entire universe ascribes "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE Might", where in the Greek text, the "article [the]" is repeated with each word, signifying, "whatever blessing, and honour, and glory, and might", there is in the entire universe, as in ALL blessings, honour, glory, might, is here said to belong "to Him that sits on the throne", which is God the Father in this case. But, the Apostle John does not stop here, but, in the Greek goes on to say, "KAI", the particle "and", which is used to "connect words, clauses and sentences", where in this case, it is used for what is "joint" between "the One Who sits on the throne AND the Lamb", Who is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ. So, let us be clear here what is being said. ALL, "THE blessing, and THE honour, and THE glory, and THE might", are said EQUALLY to belong to God the Father, and God the Son, which is the only conclusion that any honest person can conclude from this passage. In the Book of Isaiah we read these words: "to whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (46:5), and in 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images". It is very clear from these passages, that Almighty God would never "share" His glory, praise with another, nor can He ever be compared with, or made equal with anyone. And yet, in the passage in Revelation, this is exactly what the Apostle John, writing under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, has done! It would be nothing short of blasphemy, for the Apostle John, to have written as he did in Revelation 5:13-14, IF, Jesus Christ was a created being, as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach. How can the Almighty Creator God, be EVER "share" the " blessings, and honour, and glory, and might", with a someone Whom He created? Can the Creator be said to be EQUAL with His creation, IF as some blaspheme, that Jesus is a created being? Jesus Himself says in the Gospel of John, "My Father works until now, and I work" (5:17), which the Jews rightly understood as Jesus "making Himself equal (Gk, isos, "the same in quality". J H Thayer, Greek-English lexicon; "to claim for one's self the nature, rank, authority, which belongs to God, Jn. v.18", p.307. Thayer was a Unitarian, who, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, denied the Deity of Jesus Christ) to God (toi theoi)", because He had called God, "His OWN Father" (verse 18). Thus is their relationship. And in verse 23, Jesus says something that ONLY someone who was coequal to the Father could ever have said. We read: "That everyone (all humans) should honour (Gk, time, "worship, esteem, honour") the Son, even as (Gk, kathos, "just as, even as", indicating comparision) they honour the Father. He that does not honour the Son, does not honour the Father Who sent Him". Can a created being demand that SAME honour that God the Father is given? Regardless of highly exalted Jesus Christ might have been, if He were a created being, there is NO way that He could ever have used language as He does here, without blaspheming.
    John then goes on to say in verse 14, that BOTH the Father and the Lamb are EQUALLY "worshipped", "fell down and worshipped". It is only someone whose "theology" is warped, will try to argue that the "worship" here is only directed to "Him that sits on the throne", and not "to the Lamb", as well. In fact, Bible versions like the King James, are wrong here as they add the words, "Him that lives forever and ever", after, "worshipped", which is based on much weaker textual evidence. The Jehovah's Witnesses 2013 edition of their New World Translation, have verses 13-14;
    "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honour and the glory and the might forever and ever. The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped."
    It is of interest to note, that in this passage, the New World Translation, has "worshipped", but, when the same Greek word, "proskuneo", is used in Hebrews 1:6, where God the Father is speaking of Jesus Christ, says, "and let all the angels of God worship Him", their translation says, "And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”. In a footnote they add, "or, 'bow down to him'". There can be no doubt, that the ONLY reason that the Jehovah's Witnesses render the Greek as they do for Jesus Christ, is because if they had said what the Greek actually says in both Hebrews 1:6, and Revelation 5:14, that is "WORSHIP", then this would cause a huge problem for their teaching, that Jesus Christ is a created being, and not Almighty God, as Jehovah is. In fact, in the New Testament, the Greek word, "proskuneo", is used at least 59 times. I noted in the New World Translation, that in every instance where the word is used for Jesus, Matthew, 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; Hebrews 1:6, etc, it is always translated as " obeisance", as it is when used for humans. However, when, like in Matthew 4:10, it is used for the Father, "worship" is used. By doing so, the Jehovah's Witnesses equate Jesus Christ with created humans, as their demonic "theology" teaches that He Himself is part of creation. They know nothing of being truthful and honest, but only seek to promote their heretical teachings, which are based on lies. I will add here, the reading in Revelation 3:14, where Jesus Christ is called, "the arche [beginning] of the creation of God". The Greek text has it, "arche tes ktiseos tou theou". Now, to show that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not honest in their "theology" and the way they "translate" in their New World Translation, they have rendered the Greek as, "the beginning of the creation by God". For this to have been the case, then we would have expected the Apostle John to have employed the Greek preposition, "hupo" (genitive), as in "hupo tou theou", which then would mean, "by God". The change in their version has been made for the sole purpose of making Jesus the "first" to have been created "by God". J H Thayer, is of interest her. Under the Greek word, "arche", and its use in Revelation 3:14, he says, "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause" (page, 77). We further read in this same lexicon, where in Revelation 1:17, and 2:8, where Jesus Christ says of Himself, that He is, "the first and the last", Thayer says, "ho protos kai ho eschatos, i.e. the eternal One" (page, 554). Which can ONLY mean that Jesus Christ is UNCREATED, as He IS ETERNAL. Instead of, as the Jehovah's Witness teaching of this verse, as Jesus being the "first created" by God, He is actually the "origin and cause", of all created things (excluding Himself).
    There can be no doubt to the honest person, that the passage in Revelation Chapter 5, and others discussed, are very clear to the fact, that there are Two Persons here spoken of, Who are completely EQUAL, which would also make them coessential and coeternal, as they ARE Almighty God. Only to those who are more concerned by their "theological" bias against the Deity of Jesus Christ, will they argue against the Truth as taught in Scripture. It is very obvious, that, should the likes of the Jehovah's Witnesses, admit, that this passage does indeed teach that God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, are clearly shown as EQUAL from the language used, then their whole "system" falls apart. They are more content with misleading, heretical teachings, rather than accept what the Holy Bible, which is the Word of Almighty God, actually teaches. This is seen from the many corruptions that their own translation contains.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the problem is when Christians mix into this the concepts of eternal Sonship and eternal Subordination!
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    the both are linked!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    yes as eternally being begotten is his sonship per them!
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    as His divine nature? since "begetting" is more than a Title
     
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