Featured The conflicted Calvinist

I do not even know what Open Theism is, so there is no way I am going to say I believe in it.

As for Pelagius, I do not believe what Pelagius is misrepresented to have believed, that a man can believe without God's grace. But I do not believe Pelagius believed that at all, I believe that is a dishonest accusation made against Pelagius.

I have always said that no man could possibly believe in Jesus unless God had revealed him to us. I have quoted Romans 10:14 dozens of times in support of my view.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how any man can believe unless he is supernaturally regenerated? NO, Paul never says that here or anywhere in all of scripture, Paul simply asks how any man can believe in Jesus unless he has heard of him. And this is what I believe, that God has provided his Word and preachers to preach the gospel, and through this grace any man is able to believe. A man can choose to believe the gospel when he hears it, or choose not to believe it, it is his free will choice. I do not believe a man must be supernaturally regenerated to believe. There is not one word of scripture to support this view.

You Calvinists love to misrepresent me, because you cannot debate me honestly. Do you really believe folks cannot see this? The joke is on you.

 

Skan, I understood your argument, and it makes perfect sense. If a Calvinist believes that God determines what a person believes, then it is nonsensical to try to correct it. Simple.

They understood too, but they must misrepresent people in a desperate attempt to win a debate they cannot possibly win on merit.

 

Why is it "God in vessel __________"

I author a book in which I ordain EVERYTHING that comes to pass.

I write that Superman rebukes Lex Luthor for stealing uranium.

That does not have ME, the author, doing this. It has me, the author, determining that Superman do it.

It simply does not follow that the Creator, because he has ordained all that comes to pass, HAS TO BE THE ONE WHO IS ACTUALLY DOING EVERYTHING.

It is non sequitur.

 

Yes, but you are the AUTHOR of your Superman comic. YOU determined that Superman would rebuke Lex Luthor.

No one is saying that Calvinism makes God to be doing evil, people claim that Calvinism makes God the AUTHOR of evil, just as you would be the author of your Superman comic, and YOU alone determine what the characters in your comic will do. The characters in your comic themselves do not determine their actions, only YOU.

 

Winman, I do owe you an apology. For some reason I confuse you and Van. I don't know why. It hasn't been the first time. It was Van that I should have directed my comment about Open Theism because of this post: Van on Open Theism.

Please accept my apology.

 

Not if evil is not a thing. I can will this room to be dark by turning off the light but that does not make me the author, in the sense of the creator, of darkness. Why? Because darkness is not a thing. It has no essence.

It is not physical in that it has no mass occupies no space and is not susceptible to time. It is not energy. It is LITERALLY nothing.

Darkness is not a THING. It is the ABSENCE of a thing. It is the ABSENCE of LIGHT which IS a thing.

Evil is the absence of good.

Therefore it HAS no creator, just as darkness has no creator.

Now if you mean, by "author", that God was willing that evil should "exist" and made a universe in which he knew evil would exist- EVERYBODY believes that.

So in that sense, EVERYONE thinks that God is the author of evil.

It all depends on what you mean by author and WHAT you understand evil to BE... or not be more accurately.

 

Skan, no matter how you slice it, your "libertarian free will" puts man in the driver's seat. God is dependent on what choices man makes. That is not how the Bible describes God's sovereignty.

The Bible is brilliantly clear that God controls every aspect of salvation. The Biblical defense has been made so many times that it has become an exercise in redundancy to make it again. You have seen my list of passages, and the supporting exegesis before, so I will practice good vowel and consonant conservation and spare you. Smack whatever label on it that suits your fancy; determinist, fatalist, Calvinist etc., but it will not alter the clear teaching of Scripture.

If you are asking me about the daily choices we make, and how they fit into God's purpose and plan, it is harder for me to provide a satisfactory answer. We certainly cannot act outside of God's omniscience and sovereignty. I reject the foreknowledge view on the basis that God is not reactionary and not dependent on what man does. Man is not in charge. God is. But God does not lead us around by the nose. He has incorporated our choices into His divine plan. How does He do that? I am being honest when I tell you that I cannot explain it without gaping holes in my argument. Am I bothered by that? No. Why? Because it is clearly explained in soteriology, and inferred in God's other dealings with mankind.

 

Thank you Herald! :thumbsup:

Please accept my apologies as well, I am pretty rough on you Calvinists. I like a good fight, and I like the taste of blood. So, forgive me if I get a little rough sometimes.

OK, that's enough being nice, back to the fight. :tongue3:

 

Isaiah 45-7:::I(God)form the Light,and CREATE DARKNESS:I(God)make peace,and CREATE EVIL:I the Lord do all these things.

 

Yes, I am familiar with that passage.

What is your point?

 

1st Samuel 17-15:::And Saul's servants said unto him,Behold now,an EVIL SPIRIT FROM GOD troubleth thee.

its evident that the evil spirit was sent to Saul by God--so since God created evil and even sent a man an evil spirit--does that make God evil?

 

you quoted in the above post that Evil has NO creator--just quoted that scripture to say that Evil does have a creator just as darkness does according to the scriptures.

 

But you fail to answer the question, who did create evil?

 

look a couple of posts above i did so

 

God had already pronounced judgment against Saul because of his disobedience, and had already chosen David as his replacement.

1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

1 Sam 15:28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.

God used this evil spirit to bring David into Saul's house.

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.
19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep.

God did allow this evil spirit to afflict Saul because of his disobedience. It was an act of judgment, and it brought David into Saul's house. This was all done in preparation of making David king.

 

good scriptures and post--but instead of you just saying God allowed--why not say what God did,that he(God) gave the evil spirit to Saul ?The evil spirt came directly from God.

 

I don't know if evil is simply an absence of good. If I take the cream out of your coffee, that is the absence of good and you might not like the coffee, but it will not hurt you to drink it.

However, if I add poison to your coffee it will kill you when you drink it. So evil is not always an absence of good.

Evil is real, evil exists, it is not simply a lack of good. Evil thoughts are not simply a lack of good thoughts, they are thoughts with the intention of evil. If you hate someone and scheme on how to kill them, that is not simply a lack of good thoughts. You could simply not think of that person at all, that would be a lack of good thoughts. But when you imagine ways to murder that person and plan to carry it out, that is not simply a lack of good, but an addition of evil.

 

Freedom makes evil possible, but not inevitable.

 

I just wanted to make sure that I was correct in saying that you believe God created evil. Luke told you it is really not a creation, but an absence of good or God.

Another point is, that evil as used in Isa 45 is never equated with sin. God is not the author of sin. Here is a good explanation of the root words in that verse.

Did God Create Evil?

I have been of the opinion that God did not create sin, evil, suffering, or disease. So when I recently became aware of a scripture that says God created “evil”, I decided to do a little digging on that subject. Here is the verse:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God formed the sun, moon, and the stars to give us illumination. Darkness is the absence of light. So we see both extremes—light and darkness.

Then we see the next contrasting segment in the verse—peace and evil.

Before I share what I found on the word “evil” let me point out another interesting comparison of the words “form”, “make” and “create”. The Hebrew for these words are all different:

Strong #H3335—form
yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): - X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.

Strong #H6213—make
aw-saw'
A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application: - accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress (-ed), (put in) execute (-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-] ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfil, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, practise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-] ior, work (-man), yield, use.

Strong #H1254
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

I must admit that the Hebrew meanings were a bit difficult for me to really grasp, so I put them in here for your own understanding.

But the most significant thing that I learned was that “evil” is never rendered as “sin”. Also that it is based on God’s law of “sowing and reaping”. This law also has two sides or extremes—good and evil.

Here is the key note from my Dake Bible:

4. I create evil. The Hebrew word for "create" is bara' (HSN-<H1254>) and here it means to bring about; bring into existence. The Hebrew word for "evil" is ra` (HSN-<H7451>). It is never rendered "sin," but "evil" (Isa. 45:7; Gen. 2:9,17; 3:5,22); "calamity" (Ps. 141:5); "adversity" (1Sam. 10:19; Ps. 94:13; Eccl. 7:14); "grievous" (Prov. 15:10); "sorrow" (Gen. 44:29); "trouble" (Ps. 27:5; 41:1; 107:26); "distress" (Neh. 2:17); "bad" (Gen. 24:50; 31:24; Lev. 27:10-14); "affliction" (2Chr. 20:9; Zech. 1:15); "misery" (Eccl. 8:6); "sore" (Dt. 6:22); "noisome" (Ezek. 14:15,21); "hurt" (Gen. 26:29); and "wretchedness" (Num. 11:15). The idea is that God has made the law of sowing and reaping, and evil results will come when men sin. God has decreed that misery, wretchedness, sorrow, trouble, and distress will come as a result of sin (Gal. 6:7-8). Ra` (HSN-<H7451>) is translated "evil" 442 Times and never with the idea that sin is created by God. If people sin and reap for it, the responsibility for both is theirs. God simply made the law and penalties for breaking the law which will always be in force.
—Dake's Study Notes

I hope you find this helpful and enlightening—I sure did.

So I was right about sin, sickness and disease. Because evil is part of sowing and reaping, if a person sows sin he will reap evil.

The use of the word evil is a contrast, yet, as most who want to confuse Scripture, or make it confusing for a new believer, they like to take the words and misuse them.

God is the Creator of the Universe and whatever else there is out there. He is a Holy God, and He makes the rules. We are created beings. It is not our job to paint a picture of the Lord to diminish His holiness or majesty.