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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Penitence not pennance.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    That is what I meant. My phone us pagan-Catholic (worships Hod and observes pennance).

    Pentience is a regret. Repentience is where that pentience leads you.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Of repentance, McKim writes, "The act of expressing contrition and penitence for sin. Its linguistic roots point its theological meaning of a change of mind and life direction as a beginning step of expressing Christian faith (Acts26:20)."

    Repentance is a noun which requires action. That action manifests itself in godly sorrow and a changed disposition towards sin (contrition and penitence). Contrary to what another poster said in this thread it has absolutely nothing to do with Roman Catholicism and its confession-penance system.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I believe repentance is what James spoke of as the result of useful faith (a faith that works). Do I see it as belief itself.

    My personal concern is that so many today debate the meaning without exhibiting the truth conveyed in their lives. We have too much theology (in our culture) that is void of "feet". It goes back to James .... and anyone from Missouri.
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That may be but it starts first with sound theology. Bad theology can manifest itself in the converse of what you are referencing. How many times have you heard some variation of, "It does not matter what we believe. We just need to love Jesus!"?

    Also, there are two aspects of repentance. There is the repentance from sin in the Ordo Salutis and then there is daily repentance as we progress in sanctification. It is the same Spirit that works in both. The former is part and parcel with the new birth. The second includes the type of "faith without works" aspect you alluded to in the Book of James.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I veiw the repentance as the same - a repentance and continued repentance from sin and to Christ.

    Another thing I hear even more often in a Bible stude is "what does this mean you", rather than "what does this mean".

    I think there is a balance. One of the most godly and Christ-like people I have known was a Pentecostal woman who was a member of our Baptist church. Her theology was not strong (she would say that she did not understand all of that stuff) but she lived for Christ in every aspect of her life. For her, if the Bible said it she believed it without a need to understand the "deeper" workings. She accepted that Christ bore her sins and redermed her at face value (she did not have a need to understand how this was worked out).

    I am not advocating her theology (or lack thereof). I am advocating the life she found in Christ apart from leaning on her understanding.
     
  7. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Would any reformed or Calvinistic believers care to comment on what I posted on Deuteronomy 30? I noticed you guys avoid that discussion like the plague!
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The whole chapter? And in your own words how does what is written in the section of scripture explain being of God before faith?
     
  9. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    No one (at least not me) knows what you mean when you say “being of God before faith.”

    Why would I need to prove being of God before faith?

    Deuteronomy 30 says we are not incapable of hearing, and we are capable of making the choice for salvation and that choice is not made by God in heaven.

    [Deu 30:11-15 NASB] 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

    [Rom 10:6-10 NASB] 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
     
  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You do that Deuteronomy 30 is written to the covenant nation of Israel and the blessing and cursing of the Law (Deuteronomy 28) was based on the aggregate obedience of the nation, not necessarily internal spiritual obedience? IOW it was possible to display outward obedience without being regenerate. You are looking to make a theological point that does not exist in the text.
     
  11. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    This is the most common (and only) Calvinist response to Deuteronomy 30, but it is also the easiest claim to refute since Paul explicitly tells us that Deuteronomy 30 talks about salvation based on the covenant of faith.

    Rom 10:5-10 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 30 and says directly it IS written to those who are under the covenant of faith, distinguishing it from the covenant of The Law.

    Furthermore, verse 6 of Deuteronomy 30 specifically talks about circumcision of the heart (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13, Rom 4:11), so the whole context of Deuteronomy 30 is the covenant of faith, not The Law.

    Deuteronomy 30 says 3 times that salvation is a choice God sets before man. It says man is capable of making the choice, and the choice is not made by God in heaven.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    This pretty much ends the debate ... we now know the Bible specifically excludes the possibility of total depravity and irresistible grace. Without these Calvinism has no basis.

    Care to try again?
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    In the gospel according to John there are three key references (yes, there other key verses).
    The issue is those who hear and those who do not hear or heed the words of Christ.
    1) Jesus tells unbelievers the reason they do not hear is that they are "not of God." ". . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. . . ." -- John 8:47. One has to be of God before one will hear the word of God. One has to hear the word of God in order to have faith, one has to have faith in order to bbe regenearted. Here is the rub, one has to be of God before one will hear. Calvinist view is one has to be regenrated first.
    2) Jesus said one has to be His sheep to hear, ". . . But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear . . . ." Again the same problem, one has to be His sheep first in order to hear, one has to hear in order to have faith, one has to have faith in order to be regenerated. Again, Calvinist think one has to be regernated before one can have faith.
    3) It is a matter of truth, ". . . Every one that is of the truth heareth . . . ." -- John 18:37. Huh, one has to be of the truth in order to hear it? That is the issue. Something God does makes the difference. And why not everyone?
     
  13. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Here is what being “of God” means in John 8.

    Galatians 3:7
    Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.


    Galatians 3:26
    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.


    Galatians 3:29
    And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


    Galatians 4:30
    But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”


    Romans 9:6
    But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
    7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
    8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


    Hebrews 2:16
    For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.


    Luke 19:9
    And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.”


    Isaiah 54:1
    “Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman,” says the LORD.

    In the Galatians 4:21-31passage, Paul describes Ishmael as the son of the law, whereas Isaac is the son of the promise. He says that the natural, physical heir was cast out so that the inheritance of the promise could come through the miracle child Isaac (representing the spiritual kinship, rather than the physical kinship). Jesus confirms this in Luke 19:9 above, but goes into much detail in John 8:

    John 8:31
    So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
    32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
    33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
    37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
    38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.
    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
    40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
    41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.”They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
    43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
    44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


    Here, we see that Jesus was saying that if they had faith in him, they would be saved, or made righteous and free from sin and death. They say “we are not slaves” but Jesus responds that anyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. Then, they make the point that they are Abraham’s descendants. Jesus says “If you were Abraham’s descendant, you would do what Abraham did”. What did Abraham do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ! Jesus is saying if they were truly Abraham’s descendants as God defines it, they would believe in Him. Jesus goes on to say that their father is the devil, thereby demonstrating that being a descendant of Abraham in God’s eyes is not a literal, but spiritual kinship. But take special note of verse 43 of John 8. Remember faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:16-17,Isaiah 53:1). Jesus is saying they do not have faith because they do not hear His word, confirming they did not have faith in Him, and then pronouncing them disqualified as children of God and of Abraham, and instead qualified as children of Satan.

    Colossians 1:12
    giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

    Later in John 8, Jesus confirms that Abraham did indeed have faith in Him:

    John 8:56
    “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”


    Note then what Deuteronomy 30 says in regards to salvation by faith:

    Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

    So Deu 30 says you don’t need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for faith to come by hearing. It is a human choice!

    Additionally, we know indwelling comes after faith, not before:

    Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    If you have followed any of my posts over the years you will know that I have no problem providing in-depth responses to other member's posts. I type most of my responses in Microsoft Word and then copy and paste them into my posts in order to minimize grammar errors and typos. I was in the midst of doing that in response to your post. When I got to this comment of yours (quoted above) I realized that no response I type is going to be well-received. It was kind of you to let us all know that your take on scripture is so authoritative that it "pretty much ends the debate". How can I refute so accomplished a theologian as you? You grace us all by your presence on this board.
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You are not hearing the problem. One has to be of God prior to hearing in order to hear. And none of your post explained how one is of God prior to hearing.
    And beside that, in citing John 8 you skipped [?] verse 36, ". . . If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. . . ." The Son Himself being that truth that one needs to know that sets one free, verse 32.
     
  16. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    I apologize if I come off as arrogant. I’m frustrated that Calvinists won’t truly engage on Deuteronomy 30. I watch it happen every time - I bring up Deu 30, Calvinist responds saying it’s Law, not faith. I respond with Rom 10 showing Paul says the opposite, Calvinist gets “offended” by me or my tone and “takes his ball & goes home.” I’ve watched it time & again. This is the point in the conversation where the Calvinist looks for any other reason to escape the conversation. Over and over again. I never get past this point.

    BTW, I wasn’t saying I had ended this debate, but rather that Deuteronomy 30 is explicit in it's refutation of the points of Calvinistic theology.

    Actually I did, but you didn’t like the answer.

    It is human choice. We choose for ourselves whether or not to listen.

    Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

    Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

    Deuteronomy 30:15 (NASB) "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

    Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    Look at what Jesus says in John 8:

    John 8:43-44 (NASB) 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    They are of their father the devil because that is what THEY want, not because God chose it. As Deu 30 says, we are able to make the choice, and the choice is not made by God in heaven.

    How does God choose His people?

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For you are a holy peopleto the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen youto be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
    7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
    8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenantand His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;


    Nehemiah 9:7
    You are the LORD God, Who chose AbramAnd brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
    8 You found his heart faithful before You,And made a covenant with himTo give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.


    John 6:64
    But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
    65 And He was saying, “For this reasonI have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”


    1Peter 1:2
    [chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    God chose one group of elect people (the descendants of Abraham). That group has open enrollment. You become a descendant of Abraham (and by that kinship an inheritor of God’s promise to give the righteousness given to Abraham to his descendants) by having the same faith in the gospel that Abraham had. This human adoption doesn’t require regeneration.

    Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    This human adoption into the family of Abraham is how we become “of God.”

    Romans 4:10-13 (NASB) 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Isaiah 54:1 (NASB) "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

    Galatians 4:24-28 (NASB) 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
     
  17. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    The Son (or more specifically His righteousness) makes you free from sin & death. Christ’s righteousness went to Abraham in a 1:1 exchange. The rest of us inherit that righteousness by becoming qualified as descendants of Abraham. Otherwise, Christ would have to die once for every believer. But by giving the blessing to Abraham & then promising the blessing as an inheritance to all his descendants it can be multiplied to the many.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
    He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Genesis 28:4 (NASB)
    "May He also give you the blessing of Abraham, to you and to your descendants with you, that you may possess the land of your sojournings, which God gave to Abraham."

    Romans 4:9 (NASB)
    Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
    Romans 4:13 (NASB) For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    Galatians 3:14 (NASB)
    in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Besides your unBiblical view of "adoption." None of those truths explains how prior to hearing one is of God. John 8:47; John 10:26-27; John 18:37.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sure. These people were in covenant with God externally being called to obedience of faith, not salvation. Moses explains that the word of God has come down, they do not have to search for it, it was right there for any who obeyed.
    Paul quotes from here showing in the gospel the word of God is also right before the people , preached and taught, they do not have to ascend, or look below, it is right there.
     
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  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    One must have 'ears to hear.'
     
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