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Featured The crucifixion-resurrection timeline: A third view

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Calminian, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    It's also a Friday crucifixion view, but doesn't require a figurative approach to 3 days and 3 nights.

    Jesus said,

    Matt. 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    The Wednesday crucifixion view takes the 3 day and 3 nights literally, but fudges on clear third day passages, like those in Luke 24. It ends up making Sunday the fifth day (forth if you delay counting until Wednesday night).

    The traditional Friday crucifixion view correctly holds that Sunday is the third day since the crucifixion, but then interprets the 3 nights idiomatically. Very problematic considering the word night has a distinct meaning from day (Gen. 1:5) and Jesus assigned a specific number to the word.

    The third view, and correct view I'm convinced, focuses on the phrase "heart of the earth." Both of the previous views have something in common. They both view the phrase "heart of the earth" as a reference to death and the grave. I think this is their downfall.

    In this third view, heart of the earth, instead, refers to the time Jesus spent under the judgment of earthly authorities (heart of the earth). This started Thursday night in Gethsemane and ended Sunday morning—exactly 3 days and 3 nights.

    Jesus compared his time in the heart of the earth to the time Jonah spent in the belly of the whale. Jonah was in captivity during that time. He was subject to the authority of the whale, so to speak. Christ's captivity to the ruling authorities parallels nicely with this.

    In fact, there are some fascinating parallels that come to life between Jonah and Christ with this view. Just as Jonah willingly allowed himself to be thrown into the sea and whale's belly, so Christ willingly gave himself over to human authorities on Thursday night. That parallel only works with this last view.

    In addition, heart of the earth, is never used as a reference to the grave anywhere else in the Bible (isn't found in the Bible anywhere else, in fact). There's the phrase under the earth which makes more sense. This clearly means underground. But heart of the earth seems to imply something different. There's a a phrase in the OT referring to the heart of Egypt, which refers to the rulers of Egypt. I suspect heart of the earth has a similar meaning.

    This view solves all problems. No need for the strained Wednesday timeline, nor strained idioms regarding 3 days and 3 nights.

    You can read more about it here:

    What did Jesus mean by 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth?

    and here:

    Jesus, three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, not tomb
     
    #1 Calminian, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 14:12, according to Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18 is the 14th having the crucifixion on the next day. And Julian date April 6th 30 A.D.. A Thursday.
     
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    He died as THE Passover lamb paschal, when all the other Passover sacrifices had been killed as a prophecy to when He would die. The Lambs were killed the afternoon before the Seder meal. Passover began at sunset, He was already dead.
     
  4. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    What I know is that Jesus had to be given over and crucified Friday (the sixth day of the week) if Sunday (the first say of the week) is the third day. Very simple and straight forward.

    Luke 24:20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.​

    Cleopas doesn't even mention the burial in this passage. It's actually the third day since the handing over of Christ in the morning. "...since all this took place."
     
  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Fri has been used because of the word Sabbath is thought to only mean the the weekly Sabbath. It was also used for any Holy Day as the Passover ,or Feast of Unleavened Bread ,which was on the 15th of the month Nissan. , This year it is Thursday Passover is Fri. a double Holy Day. a weekly Sabbath and the Passover. We know the Feast of Unleavened bread as the Last Supper, and He was crucified Thursday afternoon. and placed in the tomb before Passover started at sunset. The next day, the women bought spices, before the weekly Sabbath started at sunset. The earliest chance to apply the spices was Sunday morning, after the weekly Sabbath.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the Passover observance lasted a week, on the 15th of the Passover feast the sin offering is made, and during the week 7 passover lambs are also offered. Numbers 28:16-24; compare, Ezekiel 45:21-23.
     
  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I think you are referring to the Temple sacrifices, The meal at home, Seder ,was one lamb killed in the afternoon. The meal for the family or close friends , Blood on the Door posts, etc.
     
  8. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Well, actually no, there are many reasons Friday has been the traditional view. One is that Friday is preparation day for the Sabbath. The main reason is that Sunday is the third day since the handing over and crucifixion of Jesus (not burial of Jesus), making Saturday the second day and Friday the first day.

    The primary reason Friday has been doubted is because of the view that the heart of the earth means the grave, which forces us to a day before Friday. My contention is that the grave interpretation is in error. And if it's in error, their is no longer any reason for an elaborate complex and confusing Thursday or Wednesday scenario. Everything works out perfectly. All other timeline passages lead to Friday. "It is the third day since all the took place."
     
    #8 Calminian, Mar 14, 2019 at 10:33 AM
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 10:43 AM
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The error is Fri., not Biblical

    There is no.preparation day for the weekly sabbath. There is one for the feast of unlearned bread. The houses would be thoroughly cleaned to insure there was no leave, a type of sin.
    Jews do this today, inviting the children to look
     
  10. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    You're still ignoring the main reason why the crucifixion has to be Friday. You deny the preparation day is Friday because if it is, that means the crucifixion is Friday. But that's not the argument. The argument is Sunday being the third day since the giving over of Jesus (not just the burial).
     
  11. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    The other problem with pre-Friday views is the definition of day. Day is defined in Genesis by God himself. It is the daylight portion of the day/night cycle. If the giving over of Jesus was Thursday or Wednesday, you have too many days—4 if Thursday, 5 if Wednesday. Only a giving over on Friday gives us Sunday as the third day.
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    If He died on Fri, when did the women buy spices?

    Look it up
     
  13. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    We'll get to that. But first, please define morning biblically. What exactly is morning, according to the Bible? When does morning start? This is extremely relevant to your above question.
     
    #13 Calminian, Mar 14, 2019 at 1:26 PM
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 2:04 PM
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . it was the preparation [παρασκευη], that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." -- Mark 15:42. Also to this day the Greek for the 6th day of the week is called and so translates, "Preperation." Παρασκευή
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    On the 1st day of the week, it is discribed as the third day since those events, Luke 24:21, the 7th day would be the second day since and the 6th day was the 1st day since, making the 5th day the day of the crucifixion (which was the 15th being the day after the 14th of Jewish month, Mark 14:12). Joseph had to wait for sundown to ask for Jesus' body because it was the 15th which as a day which no work could be done, Mark 15:42-43.
     
  16. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    I'm not following this. Please clarify if you could. I just want to make sure I understand before replying.

    Here's a modern translation, BTW:

    Mark 15:42 It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body.​

    Not that the KJV is different, but I can see where it might seem to imply sundown would usher in the preparation day. But in actuality, Mark tells the current day is the preparation day, which is why they needed to hurry and be done before sundown.

    Edit: or maybe I'm wrong on this, actually. I'm not sure yet. Maybe you can convince me.

    But I can see where this is a debate: already approaching vs. already come.
     
    #16 Calminian, Mar 14, 2019 at 2:21 PM
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019 at 2:52 PM
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I listened to a sermon on this subject. I have no way to prove it yet it seems possible to me. It seems that Christ died on Thursday just before sundown they took Him Down and placed Him in the tomb quickly. because Friday was a High Sabbath or, also know as a double Sabbath. I know it is true the Jews do have double Sabbaths ever so often. So Christ was suppose to be in the grave three days and nights. Thursday night and Friday day, then Friday night and Saturday day then Saturday night Sunday morning.. He rose on Sunday morning not at sun down this means He did not spend the entire last day in the tomb. Now I know this seems short of the time predicted, but if He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday He would have been in the grave 4 nights and three days. This is a tough one to figure out. I do know He could not have been placed in the tomb on friday. This would be 2 nights and one day. It's a trivial problem which hasn't effected my faith but it does some people I suppose. This explanation seems the most likely. If anyone has a better explanation I would like very much to see it.
    MB
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 14:12 sets the date according to the Jewish calendar as the 14th, Exodus 12:6 and Exodus 12:18. Jesus and His disciples ate the Passover that following evening Mark 14:17. Just as Jews do to this day. Christ being crucified that day, which follows its evening making the day of the crucifixion on the 15th, not the 14th. Jewish dates begin at sun down.
     
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The women could not buy spices on Fri according to this scenario
     
  20. Calminian

    Calminian Well-Known Member
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    Here's the Wednesday view, where they interpret the heart of the earth as the grave and need 72 hours of grave time. It is from the jewish perspective of days starting in the evening. In this view he's actually placed in the grave just prior to the 1st night and raises just after the 3rd day. But it accounts for the full 72 hours, 3 days and 3 nights.

    [​IMG]
    When I believed heart of the earth was a reference to the grave, I liked this view, despite it's problems.
     
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