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The Curse of Galatians 3:10-14 and Penal Substitution

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The question you need to consider is why will unrepentant sinners go in to second death and never have their sins paid for?

    By His stripes we are healed.....spiritually and awaiting a glorified resurrection body...this outward man is perishing.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    agedman,
    No ...in scriptural fact .
    [/QUOTE]

    You cannot try and negate clear teaching by trying to pit scripture against itself....answer the plural used in Jn 8
     
    #42 Iconoclast, Mar 16, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  3. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    My answer is that the Father judges no one but all judgment is given to the Son. I believe Penal Substitution Theory jumps the gun and confuses the curse and the flesh with the Judgment and the second death.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Ok, I warned you. If you aren't careful you'll be reported (Δόλος is no hypocrite). He/she don't like folk say'n other folk ain't being biblical. :Laugh
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I think you over think it looking at all the ideas men have put forth,{ I understand you like to do that , more than I would}

    .
    All Died Spiritually in Adam...physical death was a consequence.
    New Birth In the last Adam...solves the Spiritual death, and promises a redeemed body in the eternal state...

    Yes.....a Covenant death for the elect. A particular redemption for the elect alone.

    I believe you start to go off track by seeking to divide physical death and spiritual death...even in 1cor 15 while it is speaking of resurrection, it is also speaking of that which is Spiritual.

    Jesus did not die to keep us in a body that is able to sin.
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    To whom was the Christ addressing in John 8?

    To what end, or for what reason?

    I am not disagreeing that one who is not a believer does not sin, nor dies in their sin. All have and will continue to sin.

    What I am stating is that BOTH John 3 and the Revelation 11 state the single reason for the lake of fire is the lack of belief.

    All are judged out of the books (that which is done in the flesh, the good, the bad, the benign...). However, such judgment is not the determiner of eternal life and eternity of the second death.

    It seems you are mixing that sin brings both death and condemnation. Perhaps you are not, but for readers, they need to grasp that sin is awful and pays a horrible price that one can witness by looking upon those who waste away in wasted living. The Scriptures refer to them as worthless.

    Sin does not bring eternal flames, rather, it brings physical death to all, for all have sinned and death comes to all.

    After death is the judgement, but the unbeliever walks condemned.

    The condemnation rests squarely upon unbelief.

    Is that not what the Doctrines of Grace teach?
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Most of those I am familiar with looked at this death as a physical one. But these are antiquated writings and do not reflect the contemporary mainstream.

    There seems to be an idea about the physical body that is lacking in Scripture. But as I said, I'm trying to get your viewpoint.

    You see (correct me if I misunderstand) the curse as a purely spiritual death. Adam started off alive (spiritually) and when he sinned he died spiritually and spiritual death spread to all men. Physical death is a side effect (so to speak) of spiritual death and not actually the penalty of sin (otherwise Christ's death would have paid this debt as well).

    Am I close?
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    agedman

    Sinners who would die in their SINS...plural

    Yes...they will sin eternally...because there is no grace or mercy for them.
    Unbelief is a sin.....some will be in hell who never heard the gospel...they will be there because of their sins, and they will pay eternally for all their sins plural , as I showed you or reminded you of the degrees of punishment .

    it determines the degree of punishment

    among other things.
    It brings both , for sure

    no...all sin not covered by Jesus blood.

    No..those teachings are about the Covenant love of God, for the elect.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    The federal headship of Adam carries all the way through...when he fell, all these [black bolded] portions follow that chain of events...

    Now for the second Adam we have this;

    it is raised in incorruption:
    it is raised in glory:
    it is raised in power:
    it is raised a spiritual body.
    and afterward that which is spiritual.
    the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    See how far you and I will come in one area and depart in another?

    For I take John's statements as unexaggerated.

    It is true that you do not. For when you would take John 8 in strict terms, yet you will conform John 3 and 1 John 2 to your own view that the blood was insufficient to address the sin issue for all (the whole world). Such inconsistency, why not take all of what John wrote as factual? ,

    Oh well, I figured such thinking was driving your thoughts.
     
  11. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Look carefully upon this from Romans 5:

    12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

    15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

    18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Ultimately, the death here is both physical and spiritual. But because of the law (that which was delivered to Moses millennia after Adam, the sin now pays a wage, yet still death reigned from Adam to Moses, because even though the Law was not given, sin still death was still the result of sin.

    Interesting that Paul states that "ONE trespass led to condemnation for all men, so ONE act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."

    There are those who limit the atonement and therefore cannot take verse 18 as strictly interpreted. Yet, if they would be give way to the presentation and that of John as being factually based, they would see the truth that it remains belief is the single key.

    See how starting in verse 15 the free gift is NOT like the trespass? For does it not say that "the grace of God AND the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many" and note it was not for ALL!

    Again, the issue resolves to that of belief!

    ALL have the blood shed that "leads to justification and life", but most do not believe, for they refuse, turn away, and will not be redeemed and will spend eternity in the flames.

    Now this post is far from Galatians 3, but for readers who get confused in the discourse, this is a foundational truth.

    Christ came and died for sinners (all), yet not all sinners will be redeemed because such are not given the ability to believe, because they cannot embrace the light and turn away in desires of the flesh, the lusts of the world, and the pride of this life.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The passage you are quoting is from 1 Corinthians 15. Here Paul is speaking of Christ’s resurrection, the order of the resurrection, and our hope in the resurrection.

    I believe that you are taking the passage out of context, or at least reading into the passage what is not there.

    1 Corinthians 15:45-49 45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

    I believe the passage above would be sufficient to deny that Adam was created “spiritually alive” with the wages of sin being a “spiritual death”. The first Adam became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The first man is from the earth, the second from heaven.

    The first Adam (and the first man) is earthly. The curse, or the wages of sin, is in the realm of the flesh – under the bondage of sin and death. The second Adam (and the second man) bears the image of the heavenly.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I know the context of 1 cor15.
    I will stick with what I posted.
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is good we can exchange thoughts and see why we differ.
    Your next post I will respond too later in the day.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I'm not try to change your mind, just looking at our views.

    How so you reconcile your statement that Adam was spiritually alive, died spiritually and the physical followed with what seems to be Paul saying the exact opposite in 1 Cor. 15?
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "agedman

    ,Look carefully upon this from Romans 5:



    John Murray would write this on romans 5:18

    Are we to suppose that justification came upon the whole human race, upon all men distributively and inclusively?:Cautious

    He is dealing with ACTUAL justification that is In Christ and unto eternal life.:Sick
    Consequently though Paul uses the expression"all men" in the first part of the verse in the sense of all men universally, yet he must be using the same expression in the second part of the verse in a much more restricted sense, namely, of all those who will be actually justified.
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think you'll find you do. :D
    Regardless of what you may have written elsewhere, this is your statement of what you believe is the Biblical doctrine f penal substitution. It's wrong for the reason I explained and you should amend it.
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    And I think you should revise your theory. Let's be disappointed together. :Laugh
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Why, its biblical!
     
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Your last sentence is right up there with the pope being Catholic and what bears do in the woods. The point is
    1. God is a righteous Judge.
    2. God is angry with the wicked every day (NKJV).
    3. There is none righteous, no, not one.
    Therefore God is right to be angry with the wicked every day, and that is why there is a curse upon sinful man. that is all the use I make of Psalm 7:11.
    The only use of this passage that I made in my post was verse 6: 'But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.' It may be helpful to reprise what I actually wrote:

    Christ became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13) thereby redeeming us from the curse of God's law. The curse is the outworking of God's wrath or righteous anger against sin and sinners (Psalm 7:11). Christ was made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), had all our sins laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6) and thereby endured God's wrath, not against Him as Christ, but as Him made sin for us (Romans 1:18; 3:25-26).

    God's way of salvation is to make the sinless Christ to be sin for us. How does that happen? By God placing all the sins of His elect upon Him. Therefore God's wrath and His curse against sin and sinners are no longer directed towards us, but towards Christ, and He bears them (Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24).
    This is perhaps your most egregious error.
    1. The wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men i.e. sin.
    2. Christ is made sin for us.
    Therefore the wrath of God is revealed against Christ on the cross and we become the righteousness of God in Him. Simples!
    I think you'll find it does. God is 'by no means clearing the guilty.' If God is to be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus, someone must pay the penalty and bear the curse which is due to guilty sinners who believe.. that someone is Christ.
    The ECFs rejected your faulty theory of P.S. because it said nothing about Christ being made a curse for us. Justin Martyr, Eusebius and Hilary of Poitiers all based their support for the Doctrine of Penal Substitution, which is as I described it in the O.P., on Christ being made a curse for us.
     
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