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The date of the crucifixion.

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by 37818, Oct 14, 2018.

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  1. April 7, 30 AD

    0 vote(s)
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  2. April 3, 33 AD

    50.0%
  3. April 5, 30 AD

    0 vote(s)
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  4. April 6, 30 AD

    50.0%
  5. Other, please explain.

    0 vote(s)
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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I have studied this question since 1969. It came about as to whether Christ died on a Friday or a Wednesday.

    I have a firm Biblical believe that it occurred on April 6, 30 AD.

    Mark's gospel account the day before Christ' died, ". . . And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?. . . ." -- Mark 14:12.
    That identifies the date to be on the Jewish calendar to be the 14th (Exodus 12:6; Exodus 12:18).

    Jewish days begin at sundown being the evening (Mark 1:32).

    Jesus meets with His disciples that following evening (the 15th), ". . . And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. . . ." -- Mark 14:17.

    That 15th of the Passover is an holy convocation where no work except prepare food (Exodus 12:16). The body of Jesus could not be taken down on that day.

    The evening following was the being of Preparation day before the weekly Sabbath. ". . . And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . ." -- Mark 15:42.

    That identifies the day of the week for the crucifixion to be our Thursday evening. Not Wednesday. Not Friday.

    Now the question is what year was that?

    John's gospel account only records 3 Passovers. (John 2:13 & John 2:23 1st, John 6:4, 2nd, John 11:55-56 the Passover of the crucifixion.)

    Luke's account states ". . . Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, . . ." -- Luke 3:1. Which identifies the year to be 28 AD. John's three Passovers would make it 30 AD.
     
    #1 37818, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I wrote "believe" for "belief." That is annoying.
     
  3. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    Starting with Luke's accurate reference to the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, which began on 18 September 14AD, this places his 15th year between 18 September 28AD and 18 September 29AD.

    Most likely John the Baptist began preaching and baptising in the spring of AD29, as the weather began to turn warmer (fr the baptisms). As we know, Christ was born about six months after John the Baptist, His Ministry would therefore have begun about September 29AD. Many say, with good reason, that Christ may have been born during the seventh month, at the Feast of Tabernacles, which In think was early October that year.

    Although John doesn't mention the first Passover, it is readily apparent that Christ was crucified at his 4th Passover, which would be in April 33AD, which is why I voted for '3 April 33AD'. All the harmonies of the Gospel that I have read agree that His Ministry lasted 3.5 years. If all of that is correct, it means that Christ was born in September/October 1BC, on the basis that, like John the Baptist and other priests, he entered His Ministry at the age of 30.

    Christ's birth in 1BC can be fixed by a reference to a major eclipse of the moon on 29 December 1BC, which shortly preceded Herod's death. Traditionally Christ's birth has been put at 4BC or earlier, because of a lunar eclipse that year. But there were many lunar eclipses around this time (see the NASA website). The one on 29 December 1BC is most likely as it occurred in the evening when everyone would be likely to see it, not during the night.

    Coming to the events of the Passion Week:

    10th Nisan, first day of the Week (our Sunday) - Christ to Jerusalem on a colt - the perfect Lamb selected
    11th Nisan) two days travelling from Bethany to teach in the temple
    12th Nisan)
    13th Nisan, our Wednesday - uncertain, no Scripture appears to refer to it
    14th Nisan, our Thursday, the Passover is prepared as the Jewish day ends (dusk)
    15th Nisan, our Friday, (a Holy Convocation or High Day i.e. a Special Sabbath), all the events from eating the Passover Meal (early evening to the death and burial of Christ (late afternoon)
    16th Nisan, our Saturday, Weekly Sabbath
    17th Nisan, first day of the week (our Sunday), Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well accotding to Mark 14:12-16 the Passover was the day before that evening when Jesus and His deciples eat their Passover, Mark 14:17-18, "And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat, . . ."
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Luke 3:1, "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, . . ."
    18 September 14AD is year one. No year zero.!
    in 18 September 14AD and 18 September 15AD year 2.
    in 18 September 15AD and 18 September 16AD year 3
    in 18 September 16AD and 18 September 17AD year 4
    in 18 September 17AD and 18 September 18AD year 5
    in 18 September 18AD and 18 September 19AD year 6
    in 18 September 19AD and 18 September 20AD year 7
    in 18 September 20AD and 18 September 21AD year 8
    in 18 September 21AD and 18 September 22AD year 9
    in 18 September 22AD and 18 September 23AD year 10
    in 18 September 23AD and 18 September 24AD year 11
    in 18 September 24AD and 18 September 24AD year 12
    in 18 September 25AD and 18 September 26AD year 13
    in 18 September 26AD and 18 September 27AD year 14
    In 18 September 27AD and 18 September 28AD year 15
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The 15th Nissan never falls on our Friday.
     
  7. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    Let us look at the whole passage from Mark 14 v 12 down to Mark 14 v 18.

    It begins (AV): "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him: "Where wilt thou that we may go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"

    It is reasonable to assume that this may have been said during the morning of 14th Nisan. Christ was at that time staying at a house in Bethany. Some of the apostles/disciples may have been staying with Him in the village or have travelled there from Jerusalem, probably that morning (our Thursday). The apostles/disciples would be acutely aware that this was the Passover Day, the day when the lamb without blemish must be killed (per Exodus 12).

    Mark tells us that Christ sent two of His disciples to search out a room where they would find "a large upper room furnished and prepared". Luke tells us these two disciples were Peter and John. During that very day, throughout Jerusalem and the Jewish diaspora worldwide, unblemished lambs were killed.

    The Jewish day ended and began at about dusk. Custom and practice suggest that, technically, the Passover meals were taken during the first few hours of 15th Nisan, in this case, Thursday evening. It was quite a lengthy affair; the meal itself, the breaking of bread, some major sayings of Christ, Christ washing His disciples' feet, the singing of a hymn etc. A reasonable guess might be something like our 7pm to 9pm.

    Mark in Mark 14 v 12 writes: "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover". This refers to 14th Nisan, although the seven day Feast (of 'Festival') of Unleavened Bread (annually 15th to 21st Nisan) actually began when they ate the Passover meal at the beginning of 15th Nisan. Nisan 14th was not a Sabbath, but the 15th Nisan WAS a Sabbath: 'an Holy Convocation' or 'High Day' .That was followed by the weekly Sabbath (16th Nisan).

    Mark 14 vv 1-2 is also of interest. The chief priests and scribes sought to 'put Jesus to death', but 'Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people'. But despite that, when the traitor Judas disclosed to the chief priests that Christ would be heading out to the Garden of Gethsemane, their insane desire to get rid of Him for ever led them to send out an armed militia immediately to the Garden, where our Lord and Saviour prayed: "Father, not my will, but thine, be done" (Luke 22 v 42). Even though it WAS the Feast Day.
     
  8. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    Queen Elizabeth II became Queen of the UK on 6 February 1952.

    Therefore the first year of her reign was 6 February 1952 to 6 February 1953.

    By the same token, then:

    Tiberius became Emperor on 18 September 14 AD.

    18 September 14AD to 18 September 15AD is the first year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 15AD to 18 September 16AD is the 2nd year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 16AD to 18 September 17AD is the 3rd year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 17AD to 18 September 18AD is the 4th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 18AD to 18 September 19AD is the 5th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 19AD to 18 September 20AD is the 6th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 20AD to 18 September 21AD is the 7th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 21AD to 18 September 22AD is the 8th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 22AD to 18 September 23AD is the 9th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 23AD to 18 September 24AD is the 10th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 24AD to 18 September 24AD is the 11th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 25AD to 18 September 26AD is the 12th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 26AD to 18 September 27AD is the 13th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 27AD to 18 September 28AD is the 14th year of the reign of Tiberius.
    18 September 28AD to 18 September 29AD is the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not in a year zero. Not 18 September 13 AD to 18 September 14 as a year zero which you are doing. 18 September 14 is counted as year one. So 18 September 14 AD to 18 September 15 is to be counted in year 2 not 1. As I explained. Your understand makes the accounts impossible as does the Friday tradition.

    In 1 BC to 1 AD there is no year xero. (in other words 1 BC is 0 AD and 1 AD is 0 BC. )
     
  10. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    According to Matthew the upper room supper was on Tuesday, 2 days from the 15th. The supper started in the evening of Wednesday, our Tuesday evening. At midnight, now Wednesday Morning regardless of how a day is viewed, they went to the Garden of Gethsemane. By 3 am, Jesus was arrested. By 6 am sent to Herod. Around 8 am Wednesday morning back before Pilate. The crowds were starting to get huge by 9:30 am. To avoid the riot, the exchange of a prisoner. Unable to settle the crowd by 10:30 am, the process of crucifixion was hurried along, and by 11:45 am, the crosses were set. Matthew says there was darkness between noon and 3 pm. It is still Wednesday. But preparation for the 6 pm Thursday the 15th of Nisan, the high Sabbath was under way, and the body had to be placed by 6 pm. The woman waited by the tomb that had been sealed by 6pm, for 1 day, until the Sabbath was finished, and it was 6 pm the start of Friday the 16th of Nisan. That is when the Sanhedren approached Pilate and claimed the disciples may do something on Friday or during the Sabbath evening of the 17th of Nisan. Pilate needed to seal the tomb and place the guard.

    The woman left the tomb now that it was sealed and guarded. They did not come back until Sunday morning after the Sabbath. Jesus and the disciples never got the chance to celebrate the passover on the 15th which would have been our Wednesday evening to the following evening. That period was when the woman waited at the tomb from 6 pm for 24 hours. The Lord's Supper was on Tuesday around 6 pm. The arrest and trials lasted from 3 am to 10:30 am Wednesday morning. The Jews celebrated the 15th, but after 6 pm, demanded Pilate to seal the tomb, because they feared in the next 2 days, something would happen. By Saturday evening they must have been feeling pretty comfortable. Jesus had been dead for 3 days, and 3 hours. From Wednesday 3 pm to Saturday 6 pm.

    April 5th 30AD. April of 33AD the 14th was on Friday. The passover the 15th was on a Saturday that year. The high Sabbath and the Sabbath were on the same day. Jesus would have been dead for only 36 hours, only 1.5 days. 29AD, the 15th was on a Sunday. 31AD, the 15th was on March 27, a Tuesday. 32AD, the 15th was on April 15th, a Tuesday. During this range of years, Tuesdays will not work, that is too early in the week. In 29AD, Sunday would not work. Why the church picked 33AD does not make sense. That means Jesus would have been born either 1BC or 1AD. The margin of error places the birth in 4 BC. 30AD is not to early. The baptism by John would have been in the fall of 26. 36AD, the 15th was on a Saturday again.

    Luke 3 does not claim Jesus was baptized in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius. Luke indicates that was when Herod put John in prison. Jesus was baptized in the fall of 26. Within 2 years in 28, John was put in prison. After a few months in prison, was when John sent his disciples to question Jesus. Jesus still had about a year left in His ministry. John the Baptist was beheaded during this last year before April of 30AD.
     
    #10 timtofly, Aug 3, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  11. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    I respond as follows:

    Suppose a boy, named say Alexander, was born on 18 September last year, 2019. Today, 3 August 2020, he would be aged 0 but be "in his first year". On 18 September this year, he will be 1, and just about to begin his second year, and so on.

    Likewise, 28 September 14AD was the day Tiberius became Emperor. In that moment he began his first year, and finished his first year as Emperor on 18 September 15AD.

    It follows from that, that Tiberius began his fifteenth year (1 + 14) on 18 September 28AD and ended it on 18 September 29AD. During that 15th year, John the Baptist's ministry commenced, almost certainly in early April, as spring was beginning. The beginning of Christ's Ministry can be accurately dated to early October 29AD or thereabouts. This makes perfect sense as those six months would be the warmest and therefore most suitable for outside baptisms in the river Jordan.

    In the calendar we now use, the year 1AD immediately follows 1BC.

    If as I suggested upthread, Christ was born in October 1BC, then this is the outline chronology of His life on earth:

    October 1BC - born
    April 12AD - attends Passover with His parents, aged 12.5
    October 29BC - begins His 3.5-year Ministry at 30 years of age
    April 30AD - attended the first Passover of His Ministry
    April 31AD - attends the second Passover of His Ministry
    April 32AD - attends the third Passover of His Ministry
    April 33AD - attends his fourth and final Passover of His Ministry
    40 days later, ascended into Heaven
    I respond as follows:

    Suppose a boy, named say Alexander, was born on 18 September last year, 2019. Today, 3 August 2020, he would be aged 0 but be "in his first year". On 18 September this year, he will be 1, and just about to begin his second year, and so on.

    Likewise, 28 September 14AD was the day Tiberius became Emperor. In that moment he began his first year, and finished his first year as Emperor on 18 September 15AD.

    It follows from that, that Tiberius began his fifteenth year (1 + 14) on 18 September 28AD and ended it on 18 September 29AD. During that 15th year, John the Baptist's ministry commenced, almost certainly in early April, as spring was beginning. The beginning of Christ's Ministry can be accurately dated to early October 29AD or thereabouts. This makes perfect sense as those six months would be the warmest and therefore most suitable for outside baptisms in the river Jordan.

    In the calendar we now use, the year 1AD immediately follows 1BC.

    If as I suggested upthread, Christ was born in October 1BC, then this is the outline chronology of His life on earth:

    October 1BC - born
    April 12AD - attends Passover with His parents, aged 12.5

    October 29AD - begins His 3.5-year Ministry at 30 years of age

    April 30AD - attended the first Passover of His Ministry
    April 31AD - attends the second Passover of His Ministry
    April 32AD - attends the third Passover of His Ministry
    April 33AD - attends his fourth and final Passover of His Ministry
    40 days later, ascended into Heaven.

    Are you able to explain why in your judgment: "Your understand(ing) makes the accounts impossible as does the Friday tradition"?
     
  12. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    The Jewish month of 30 days meant that the weekday on which 15th Nisan fell varied from one year to the next!

    During Christ's Passion week, 14th Nisan began on our Wednesday early evening and ended the following early evening ,Thursday. It was the FIFTH day of that week .That day the perfect lamb was killed in anticipation of eating the Passover meal as soon as 15th Nisan began.

    15th Nisan was from Thursday evening to Friday evening. All the events from Christ's Passover meal to His crucifixion and burial occurred during that one Jewish Day. That was the SIXTH day of the week.

    16th Nisan was the SEVENTH day of the week, the Jewish weekly Sabbath. Christ was buried in the tomb that day/

    On 17th Nisan, beginning on our Saturday evening, Christ was resurrected just before dawn. This was the FIRST day of the week.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The 15th of Nissan is never on the 6th day of the week on the Jewish calendar. Here is a tool to check this: Calendar Converter

    Now Sir Isaac Newton reckoned the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar to be in 29 AD and based on that had calculated two dates for a Friday crucifixion, the one in use today is Julian date April 3rd 33 AD.
     
  14. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    If we start with the almost universal agreement that, in order to fulfil Exodus 12, the occasion of Christ riding on a colt into Jerusalem was the journey of the perfect sacrificial lamb, to be selected on 10th Nisan, then this day was 10th Nisan.

    There follow coherent accounts of two further days on which Christ travelled from and back to Bethany each night .On the next day (11th Nisan), the disciples saw the fig tree which was producing no figs. Christ cursed it. The very next day (12th Nisan), Peter noticed that the fig tree was dead.

    Now, if we count backwards for a moment ,we have
    17th Nisan - First day of the week, resurrection of Christ
    16th Nisan - Sabbath, Christ in the tomb
    15th Nisan - all the events from eating the Passover meal to the burial of Christ, the First Day of the 7-day Feast of the Passover, a 'Holy Convocation, an 'High Day', i.e. a Special Sabbath
    14th Nisan - preparation for the eating of the Passover Meal, the killing of the perfect lamb.

    That leaves us with a day when we do not have much specific information to tie us to the 13th Nisan, but most commentators place Matthew 26 vv 1-2 on that day (our Tuesday 6pm to Wednesday 6pm). The preparation of the Passover follows, i.e. 14th Nisan, Wednesday 6pm to Thursday 6pm).

    Matthew says it will be two days to the 'feast of the passover', which must mean 15th Nisan. Thus the events that follow seem to have taken place on 13th Nisan, though I concede there is room for some doubt.

    Mark 14 vv 1 & 2 and Luke 22 vv 1-2 are helpful in that they fix the day on which it was 'two days' to the feast on the 15th was the very same day that there was a meeting of the chief priests and scribes on how to "take him by craft and put him to death". This also appears to have been the same day when, later, there was a 'supper' at the house of 'Simon the leper'. There, a woman poured expensive spices and perfume over Christ. Judas, and maybe one or two other disciples, complained about the waste of money. Then, Luke informs us that 'Satan entered into Judas named Iscariot' ,and went off to commune with the chief priests as to how he might betray Christ.

    The day following is the day when the Passover meal must be prepared (14th Nisan), see Matthew 26 v 17, Mark 14 v 12 and Luke 22 v 7.

    To claim that the Passover lamb was killed on the Tuesday ,and eaten on our Tuesday evening rather than our Wednesday. does not therefore seem to be supported by the Scriptures.
     
  15. cheb

    cheb New Member

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    As stated above, the fifteenth year of the reign of Emperor Tiberius began on 18 September 28AD and ended on 18 September 29AD. Therefore John the Baptist's Ministry was during this year, and most likely began in the early spring of 29AD. Christ's Ministry began about six months later.

    Luke 3 indeed does not state that Christ was baptised by John in the fifteenth year of Tiberius (and upthread I didn't claim that He was). However, as Christ's Ministry began about six months after John the Baptist began his ministry, we can safely place the beginning of Christ's ministry around September or October 29AD. Luke does not actually indicate that it was the occasion of Christ's baptism when Herod put John in prison, though most commentators agree that it was likely to have been fairly soon afterwards, while he was preaching in Perea. It is correct that John the Baptist was in prison for some considerable time, for we know that Herod spoke to him 'many times' (Mark 6 v 20, Matthew 11 vv 2-4, Luke 7 vv 18-23). Christ's Ministry spanned 3.5 years, beginning early autumn 29AD and ending early spring 33AD. Most authorities agree that John the Baptist was likely beheaded on Herod's orders between the second Passover and third Passover during His Ministry i.e. between early spring 31AD and early spring 32AD. This article gives a useful analysis of John the Baptist's life:

    Did Herod Want to Kill John the Baptist?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Counting backards, the 1st day of the week being the 3rd from the crucifixion.
    Luke 24:21, ". . . to day is the third day since these things were done."
    The 2nd day since ________
    The 1st day since _________
    The day ________
     
  17. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    Do you live by a Jewish Calendar? Jesus did not even have the GregorIan Calendar, nor the Jewish one. The Calendar of Jesus day was set by the Romans. They worked for 6 days, off 2 days and then worked 6 days off 2 days. The Calendar was set for a week with "8" days in it.

    Today with computers, there are algorithms to "match" up days. The 10th of Nisan in 30AD would have been the first day of the week, a Sunday. There is an extra day. The Jews still kept a Sabbath but it was not every 7th day of the calendar. It was the day after the 6 work days. It sounds strange to us because we only work 5 days of 2. In Jesus' day, they worked 6 days and then had 2 market days. But days of rest were the pagan feast days at certain times of the month.
     
  18. timtofly

    timtofly Active Member

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    There are only two years 30AD and 33AD that will work. 30AD the 15th of Nisan went from Wednesday evening to Thursday evening. 2 days before the Sabbath. There was a Friday in between the two Sabbaths. 33AD the 15th of Nisan was on the Sabbath day. That is using a Gregorian Calendar according to the Jewish Calendar overlay. If you are not using the Gregorian Calendar, you can make up any number you want to. If you do not want to match up with the 15th of Nisan you can pick just any year.

    However you put it, Jesus died the day before Passover, and He and the disciples, either had it 2 days early, or not at all that year.
     
    #18 timtofly, Aug 4, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
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