The Design of the Atonement

[pinoybaptist]

Yeshua,

I think you have hit an a problem area.

How is it that 1 John says that the blood was shed not just for believer's sins but those of the whole world, yet some would literally discredit that statement to limit that full payment.

John 3 is extremely clear. Folks are already condemned not for sin but for unbelief.

I disagree that the blood of Christ is limited to only those who believe. Reconciliation (atonement) is certainly limited, but not the propitiation (blood sacrifice).

you see, herein is where the problem begins for all these contentions between people who name the Name of Christ as their own.

Why do we want ALL HUMANITY to be covered by the atoning blood of Christ when that is not the intent of the Creator ?

We use words like 'believer' and yet we know that our next door neighbor may not even be a believer of what we believe. as a matter of fact, within our own family circle may be people who do not know, or believe in, the God we believe in and know.

So, we limit the ability of God to reach out to those whom He wants in His eternal kingdom with the word "believer" but yet we contradict ourselves by expanding redemption to include the whole mankind !

God wanted to show the entire nation of Egypt that there is a God that rules in Israel, and He did, in no uncertain terms. He plagued the Egyptians, He killed their firstborn, and then He drowned their entire army in the sea.

He wanted to show the fierce warrior of Jericho, AND HIS PEOPLE, that He can subdue them, and He did, with seven days of marching and a final loud yell !

He wanted to show Nebuchadnezzar that He alone was supreme and owner of EVERYTHING on earth, and He did. You all know what happened to that proud and vain king.

He wanted to create, and all He did was speak out !

Now, if He wanted to redeem, and save unto Himself, ALL OF HUMANITY, why can't He ? What stumped Him ? Man's free will ? His grace ? Satan's taunts ?

We need to go back to the beginning, folks. That 'foundation of the world' which some "wise" contributor to this confusion said could've been any point in time. More twisting of facts to suit one's view instead of taking the Bible for what it describes and says. FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

What was God's act then ? He writes a book. He calls it the Book of Life. And it wasn't an empty book, because He consults it at the Great White Throne and makes it FINAL PROOF that those whom He casts into hell or the lake of fire, DESERVED to be cast into the lake of fire, because of their works, and the fact that their names are not in the book, and Jesus Christ enacts that by telling those who boasted to Him of their works in His Name that He never knew them.

So, if God wants ALL MEN as in EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD on this earth and in this time world to be with Him in heaven, then why didn't He write their names in that book ?

For the simple reason that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

And, folks, more bad news for those who want ALL MANKIND saved.

It's over. The cross is past, the blood was shed, and Jesus Christ now sits in Heaven advocating on behalf of those He ALREADY redeemed with His blood.

He doesn't enact His sacrifice on the cross every time some poor repenting sinner 'accepts' Him as savior and presents himself available for atonement.

 

[Rippon]

I believe in and agree with everything you said in your post pinoybaptist. And I didn't even have to quote your entire post to do so!

Thanks brother.

 

[pinoybaptist]

is Jesus Christ still 'saving' ?

And yet, yes, Jesus Christ is still applying the atonement's power to those who are here in time, redeemed, saved for all eternity, but unsaved gospelly.
He has created an organism before He left, which He is continously building, and given these organisms the power of the Holy Spirit, as well as the gifts of preachers, pastors, teachers, and evangelists.
In these organisms, He resides and rules, AND DRAWS THOSE WHOM HE REDEEMED FROM ALL POINTS OF TIME, PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE and within these He saves, GOSPELLY, those whom He redeemed eternally.
But 'an enemy had planted chaff' within the wheat, doctrinally.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe in and agree with everything you said in your post pinoybaptist. And I didn't even have to quote your entire post to do so!

Thanks brother.

Me too...but I was going to post it again just to read some more truth for a change.:wavey::wavey:

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

 

[percho]

you see, herein is where the problem begins for all these contentions between people who name the Name of Christ as their own.

Why do we want ALL HUMANITY to be covered by the atoning blood of Christ when that is not the intent of the Creator ?

We use words like 'believer' and yet we know that our next door neighbor may not even be a believer of what we believe. as a matter of fact, within our own family circle may be people who do not know, or believe in, the God we believe in and know.

So, we limit the ability of God to reach out to those whom He wants in His eternal kingdom with the word "believer" but yet we contradict ourselves by expanding redemption to include the whole mankind !

God wanted to show the entire nation of Egypt that there is a God that rules in Israel, and He did, in no uncertain terms. He plagued the Egyptians, He killed their firstborn, and then He drowned their entire army in the sea.

He wanted to show the fierce warrior of Jericho, AND HIS PEOPLE, that He can subdue them, and He did, with seven days of marching and a final loud yell !

He wanted to show Nebuchadnezzar that He alone was supreme and owner of EVERYTHING on earth, and He did. You all know what happened to that proud and vain king.

He wanted to create, and all He did was speak out !

Now, if He wanted to redeem, and save unto Himself, ALL OF HUMANITY, why can't He ? What stumped Him ? Man's free will ? His grace ? Satan's taunts ?

We need to go back to the beginning, folks. That 'foundation of the world' which some "wise" contributor to this confusion said could've been any point in time. More twisting of facts to suit one's view instead of taking the Bible for what it describes and says. FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

What was God's act then ? He writes a book. He calls it the Book of Life. And it wasn't an empty book, because He consults it at the Great White Throne and makes it FINAL PROOF that those whom He casts into hell or the lake of fire, DESERVED to be cast into the lake of fire, because of their works, and the fact that their names are not in the book, and Jesus Christ enacts that by telling those who boasted to Him of their works in His Name that He never knew them.

So, if God wants ALL MEN as in EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD on this earth and in this time world to be with Him in heaven, then why didn't He write their names in that book ?

For the simple reason that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and compassion on whom He will have compassion.

And, folks, more bad news for those who want ALL MANKIND saved.

It's over. The cross is past, the blood was shed, and Jesus Christ now sits in Heaven advocating on behalf of those He ALREADY redeemed with His blood.

He doesn't enact His sacrifice on the cross every time some poor repenting sinner 'accepts' Him as savior and presents himself available for atonement.

I basically agree. The Passover lamb, the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world has been slain.

Was it coincidental, the day that took place?

Was it coincidental the day the Spirit of Truth began to be shed on man in order that he could believe the truth?
This was the day of, "what," when your weeks be out?

Names written in the book. A people for his name Acts 15:14. Romans 8:23.

Does to prefix something with the word first imply there will be seconds also?

Are just the, "first," saved?

James 1:18

Did John Calvin ever ask himself these questions? Did the questions ever enter the mind of Jacobus Arminius?

No because both thought faith is of man but they disagreed of how that faith
comes about.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Faith is on one side or the other of that verse. It is not on both sides.

 

[pinoybaptist]

and look at the further folly going on here on this board, first.
somebody calls himself Calvinist or a proponent of the doctrine of grace or someone holding to free grace and on the other side somebody calls himself an Arminian, a classic Arminian, a Neo-Arminian, and, initially, presents his case, so to speak, nicely, but, things deteriorate and one or the other starts implied insuts on the intelligence of the other for believing in what he thinks is the folly of whatever type of soteriology he holds to and pretty soon things go out of hand.

And FOR WHAT ?
FOR NOTHING.
Because if we TRULY BELIEVE THE AUTHOR OF THE SCRIPTURES IS GOD HIMSELF THEN LET THE AUTHOR SPEAK FOR HIMSELF THROUGH THE LITERATURE HE LEFT BEHIND !!!

And that literature tells us FOR WHOM it was written, that it was NOT WRITTEN TO BENEFIT MANKIND AND GET ALL OF MANKIND SAVED, EITHER ETERNALLY OR GOSPELLY.
His words, AND HIS ACTIONS, say so.

Check out Romans 15:4, and 1 Corinthians 10:12, two very short verses that REFUTE THE NOTION THAT GOD WANTS ALL OF MANKIND SAVED IN HEAVEN, OR EVEN IN TIME.

Again, the atonement is LIMITED in DESIGN AND SCOPE to those for whom the blood of the Lamb was shed, and that truth is illustrated and reinforced by the FACT that Scripture says there is a book in heaven in which ALL the names of God's people, who will ever be born in time and in all points of the earth were written by the God of Creation Himself, and if one believes and accepts that, one comes to the INEVITABLE CONCLUSION that it is for them, and them only, the blood of Christ was shed, and in THAT DECISION, they had nothing at all to do.

The atonement is LIMITED to them, but the blood that covered their sins were more than enough to satisfy God's wrath, and NONE OF THEM have ever been, or will ever be, bound for hell.

Somebody will argue about being IN CHRIST, or placed IN CHRIST. True. Undeniable. It will be FOLLY to argue against it. But, who are those who are IN CHRIST, and who are those who were placed IN CHRIST ?

There is no argument, considering many Scriptures, even Scriptures that contain the words "in Christ" or "in the Beloved", that these words or phrases can only be applied to those whose names are in the book written from the foundation of the world.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

and look at the further folly going on here on this board, first.
somebody calls himself Calvinist or a proponent of the doctrine of grace or someone holding to free grace and on the other side somebody calls himself an Arminian, a classic Arminian, a Neo-Arminian, and, initially, presents his case, so to speak, nicely, but, things deteriorate and one or the other starts implied insuts on the intelligence of the other for believing in what he thinks is the folly of whatever type of soteriology he holds to and pretty soon things go out of hand.

And FOR WHAT ?
FOR NOTHING.
Because if we TRULY BELIEVE THE AUTHOR OF THE SCRIPTURES IS GOD HIMSELF THEN LET THE AUTHOR SPEAK FOR HIMSELF THROUGH THE LITERATURE HE LEFT BEHIND !!!

And that literature tells us FOR WHOM it was written, that it was NOT WRITTEN TO BENEFIT MANKIND AND GET ALL OF MANKIND SAVED, EITHER ETERNALLY OR GOSPELLY.
His words, AND HIS ACTIONS, say so.

Check out Romans 15:4, and 1 Corinthians 10:12, two very short verses that REFUTE THE NOTION THAT GOD WANTS ALL OF MANKIND SAVED IN HEAVEN, OR EVEN IN TIME.

Again, the atonement is LIMITED in DESIGN AND SCOPE to those for whom the blood of the Lamb was shed, and that truth is illustrated and reinforced by the FACT that Scripture says there is a book in heaven in which ALL the names of God's people, who will ever be born in time and in all points of the earth were written by the God of Creation Himself, and if one believes and accepts that, one comes to the INEVITABLE CONCLUSION that it is for them, and them only, the blood of Christ was shed, and in THAT DECISION, they had nothing at all to do.

The atonement is LIMITED to them, but the blood that covered their sins were more than enough to satisfy God's wrath, and NONE OF THEM have ever been, or will ever be, bound for hell.

Somebody will argue about being IN CHRIST, or placed IN CHRIST. True. Undeniable. It will be FOLLY to argue against it. But, who are those who are IN CHRIST, and who are those who were placed IN CHRIST ?

There is no argument, considering many Scriptures, even Scriptures that contain the words "in Christ" or "in the Beloved", that these words or phrases can only be applied to those whose names are in the book written from the foundation of the world.

Amen:applause:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As a side note, I just came back from a men's Bible study at a UMC....topic was Proverbs. In a discussion there were many comments about why people sin....basically every excuse in the book to justify it. So I said, "guys this is just sin, plain and simple. Well these fellows didn't want to hear that. Sin is something they still cant own up to....and they are sitting in a Bible study with bibles in their hands....but they were all blind to it. It was just creepy....bacically I had the pastor there at the table (who I could see agreed with me but didn't stress the element of sin). This is what happens dear reader when you eliminate doctrine from your instruction....the word 'apostate ' is clearly evident. Also, I'm not going back to that nonsense.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To me, getting the Atonement right is critical to ones belief system. The question, What did God the Father actually intend to do in sending His Son to die for us? And then the follow up question, Did Jesus' death actually redeem anyone? And lastly, Did His sacrifice of Himself make a true propitiation for our sins?

These are all thought provoking & the answers defiantly point you into one belief system or another. So where do you stand?

Back to the 1st Question: What did God the Father actually intend to do in sending His Son to die for us?

Penoy provided us with some "Back to the Basics" answers ....by traveling back to Gods Plan (From the foundations of the Earth). God is in control, He has a plan & he has a Book . In effect, the starting point is the greater glory of GOD. SO LET ME ATTEMPT TO NAIL IT SHUT!

The Father has a plan and he has implemented that plan from the Foundations of the Earth. He also does not consult with His creation in the design & build...... the plan is His and the Godheads (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). God alone chooses those that will be saved & those that wont be....and man is to rely on Gods mercy to select :

Exodus 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

King James Bible
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

The SON..... Who implements through his Obedience to the Father.

John 6:38-39

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day.

Lastly, The Job of the Holy Spirit: He regenerates us, gives us a new nature, as a result of which we naturally do what the new nature does: that is, we believe the gospel, repent of our sin, and trust in Christ unto salvation.

Ezekiel 11:19

19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,[a] and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,

John 5:24

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Question 2: Did Jesus' death actually redeem anyone?

IE....Did Christ buy us back.....whats scripture say?

Galatians 3:13

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[a

Revelation 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Now what was that reference about a book? :godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Question #3: And lastly, Did His sacrifice of Himself make a true propitiation for our sins?

IE..... Did Christ turn aside wrath? Specifically Gods wrath?

Romans 3:25

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Answer: YES.....Yes Indeed!

 

[percho]

and look at the further folly going on here on this board, first.
somebody calls himself Calvinist or a proponent of the doctrine of grace or someone holding to free grace and on the other side somebody calls himself an Arminian, a classic Arminian, a Neo-Arminian, and, initially, presents his case, so to speak, nicely, but, things deteriorate and one or the other starts implied insuts on the intelligence of the other for believing in what he thinks is the folly of whatever type of soteriology he holds to and pretty soon things go out of hand.

And FOR WHAT ?
FOR NOTHING.
Because if we TRULY BELIEVE THE AUTHOR OF THE SCRIPTURES IS GOD HIMSELF THEN LET THE AUTHOR SPEAK FOR HIMSELF THROUGH THE LITERATURE HE LEFT BEHIND !!!

And that literature tells us FOR WHOM it was written, that it was NOT WRITTEN TO BENEFIT MANKIND AND GET ALL OF MANKIND SAVED, EITHER ETERNALLY OR GOSPELLY.
His words, AND HIS ACTIONS, say so.

Check out Romans 15:4, and 1 Corinthians 10:12, two very short verses that REFUTE THE NOTION THAT GOD WANTS ALL OF MANKIND SAVED IN HEAVEN, OR EVEN IN TIME.

Again, the atonement is LIMITED in DESIGN AND SCOPE to those for whom the blood of the Lamb was shed, and that truth is illustrated and reinforced by the FACT that Scripture says there is a book in heaven in which ALL the names of God's people, who will ever be born in time and in all points of the earth were written by the God of Creation Himself, and if one believes and accepts that, one comes to the INEVITABLE CONCLUSION that it is for them, and them only, the blood of Christ was shed, and in THAT DECISION, they had nothing at all to do.

The atonement is LIMITED to them, but the blood that covered their sins were more than enough to satisfy God's wrath, and NONE OF THEM have ever been, or will ever be, bound for hell.

Somebody will argue about being IN CHRIST, or placed IN CHRIST. True. Undeniable. It will be FOLLY to argue against it. But, who are those who are IN CHRIST, and who are those who were placed IN CHRIST ?

There is no argument, considering many Scriptures, even Scriptures that contain the words "in Christ" or "in the Beloved", that these words or phrases can only be applied to those whose names are in the book written from the foundation of the world.

My question.

Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin (singular) of the whole world. J1

This sin (singular) that was taken away; Is it the sin of Adam that brought death to all men? R5 For as in Adam all die 1C15

the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; R13 τοῦ ἀρνίου ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου TR τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου GNT But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1P1

Was the Lamb of God foreordained before the foundation of the world to shed his blood, that is be slain, from the foundation of the world? And as it is appointed unto men once, to die but after this the judgment: Heb9 (I moved the coma) Was the Lamb of God going to be a man born of woman? When was it appointed for man to die and then be judged? How could he be judged after dying unless he be given life again?

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 ---- This is before the world began, before the foundation of the world, before the sin that brought death to all men. Who is this promise being made for?

Does the resurrection of this Lamb allow some kind of life to be given to all men? 1 Cor 15:22 even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now to get to that I put in bold above. In Christ.

What puts one in Christ. The gift of the Holy Spirit. Where does it come from?
Does it not come to man from God the Father through his Son Jesus the Christ?

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Did Jesus first have to receive from the Father the Spirit of Truth before that Spirit could be shed on men? Did Jesus first have to be raised from the dead before he could receive the Spirit from the Father? V32 Did Jesus first have to die before he could be raised from the dead to be given the Spirit to be given to man?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

What day did this giving of the Spirit to man take place on? Was it not this day?
Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: Num 28:26 -- Is the following speaking of the same? Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Is it that Spirit that will bring about the adoption, the redemption of the body,
incorruptibility, eternal life to the whole man? If alive at the coming of the Lord changed incorruptible, If dead, raised from Hades, incorruptible?

Does the word, "first," preceding fruit imply there will be other fruit also?


Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18

What is inclusive in the word after this the judgement.

Who is being judged presently? Is it not the household of God, those which have the firstfruits of the Spirit?

Is God truly doing this? To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19 And has he given the ministry of reconciliation to the firstfruits of the Spirit? -----Compare the following ---

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:4,5,9,10

Are these the first fruits of the Spirit of God?

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. V12

Was that possible because they were given the Spirit of Truth?

 

[Yeshua1]

and look at the further folly going on here on this board, first.
somebody calls himself Calvinist or a proponent of the doctrine of grace or someone holding to free grace and on the other side somebody calls himself an Arminian, a classic Arminian, a Neo-Arminian, and, initially, presents his case, so to speak, nicely, but, things deteriorate and one or the other starts implied insuts on the intelligence of the other for believing in what he thinks is the folly of whatever type of soteriology he holds to and pretty soon things go out of hand.

And FOR WHAT ?
FOR NOTHING.
Because if we TRULY BELIEVE THE AUTHOR OF THE SCRIPTURES IS GOD HIMSELF THEN LET THE AUTHOR SPEAK FOR HIMSELF THROUGH THE LITERATURE HE LEFT BEHIND !!!

And that literature tells us FOR WHOM it was written, that it was NOT WRITTEN TO BENEFIT MANKIND AND GET ALL OF MANKIND SAVED, EITHER ETERNALLY OR GOSPELLY.
His words, AND HIS ACTIONS, say so.

Check out Romans 15:4, and 1 Corinthians 10:12, two very short verses that REFUTE THE NOTION THAT GOD WANTS ALL OF MANKIND SAVED IN HEAVEN, OR EVEN IN TIME.

Again, the atonement is LIMITED in DESIGN AND SCOPE to those for whom the blood of the Lamb was shed, and that truth is illustrated and reinforced by the FACT that Scripture says there is a book in heaven in which ALL the names of God's people, who will ever be born in time and in all points of the earth were written by the God of Creation Himself, and if one believes and accepts that, one comes to the INEVITABLE CONCLUSION that it is for them, and them only, the blood of Christ was shed, and in THAT DECISION, they had nothing at all to do.

The atonement is LIMITED to them, but the blood that covered their sins were more than enough to satisfy God's wrath, and NONE OF THEM have ever been, or will ever be, bound for hell.

Somebody will argue about being IN CHRIST, or placed IN CHRIST. True. Undeniable. It will be FOLLY to argue against it. But, who are those who are IN CHRIST, and who are those who were placed IN CHRIST ?

There is no argument, considering many Scriptures, even Scriptures that contain the words "in Christ" or "in the Beloved", that these words or phrases can only be applied to those whose names are in the book written from the foundation of the world.

Are the Elect of God in Christ 'saved" by Him before actually getting saved by Him?

Isn't the death of jesus ONLY in real sense effectually applied towards us the moment that one believes and receives jesus as Lord, thru the faith God grants towards those whom He chose to save?

that we are still lost and non reconcile to God until we actually believ in jesus?

 

[percho]

Are the Elect of God in Christ 'saved" by Him before actually getting saved by Him?

Isn't the death of jesus ONLY in real sense effectually applied towards us the moment that one believes and receives jesus as Lord, thru the faith God grants towards those whom He chose to save?

that we are still lost and non reconcile to God until we actually believ in jesus?

There is a reason Gal 3:23 begins before the faith came, and Gal 3:25 says After the faith is come.

Until the hoped for promise of God was actually inherited Faith wasn't a reality.

Faith is the substance (the reality) of things hoped for.

Gal 3:21 Life is the promise hoped for that does not come by the law.
3:19 the law was added until who the promise was for came
3:18 the promise is inheritance of life
3:16 the promise was only for the Christ singular the seed of Abraham. Remember Abraham died not having received the promises.

Abraham if the father of the faith because his seed the Christ would inherit the promise and thus become, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Eternal life incorruptible. The gospel. 2 Tim 1:10

Please show me from scripture where this is not correct.

 

[Tom Butler]

I have a couple of scripture verses I'd like to throw into the discussion.

Here's the first one. Isaiah 53:11, which we all agree is the prophecy of Jesus death on the cross:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, `and' shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.

Who is it that sees the travail of his soul? I think we all agree that it is the Father.

Whose soul? General agreement that it is the Son.

What does it mean for God to be satisfied? Generally, it's agreed that God's justice has been satisfied, I think. This leads to the question, who are the objects of that satisfaction?

Why did God say that His Righteous Servant would justify "many." Why not "all?" What does this mean? That the atonement is not universal?

This same Righteous Servant shall bear their iniquities. Whose iniquities? Obviously, the many. But the implication is that there are those whose iniquities the Servant did not bear.

If this is the case, then the design of the atonement is save a certain number, and guarantees that they will come to salvation.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's the next passage to chew on:
II Corinthians 5:18-19

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Here we have Paul saying that God, in Christ, is reconciling the world to himself. I can understand that those who hold to a general atonement (that Christ died for all without exception), will jump on that verse to support their view.

But the verse doesn't stop there. Paul goes on to say that this reconciliation means that their sins are not imputed to them.

Them? The world. Everybody? Without exception?

If that's what it means, then it has to follow that if all for whom Jesus died will be saved, then nobody goes to Hell.

We know from scripture, of course that there are people in Hell.

So everybody is not saved, reconciled. Which means "world" must mean something other than "all without exception."

I'll stop here and await your comments.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Tom, I was listening to the radio on the way home and the guy behind the mike said: the whole world is celebrating Christmas.

But we know that is not true.
Not even the whole of these United States is celebrating the birth of the Savior, how much more the whole world ?
lol.
Apparently, when encountering the word "world" in Scripture, one has to consider many other things, not the least of which is context, much like when one encounters the words "salvation" or "save".

 

[percho]

Here's the next passage to chew on:
II Corinthians 5:18-19
Here we have Paul saying that God, in Christ, is reconciling the world to himself. I can understand that those who hold to a general atonement (that Christ died for all without exception), will jump on that verse to support their view.

But the verse doesn't stop there. Paul goes on to say that this reconciliation means that their sins are not imputed to them.

Them? The world. Everybody? Without exception?

If that's what it means, then it has to follow that if all for whom Jesus died will be saved, then nobody goes to Hell.

We know from scripture, of course that there are people in Hell.

So everybody is not saved, reconciled. Which means "world" must mean something other than "all without exception."

I'll stop here and await your comments.

Tom I would like to ask you. Why did God give to the children of Israel the Passover to be observed every year after they departed Egypt? Did that yearly observation of the Passover that had taken place in the pass point to something else to take place in the future? If yes, what?

We both know the answer. The death of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Following the Passover. Is Jesus the Passover Lamb for the church? God gave them seven holy convocations to be kept yearly.

The first on the 15th day of the first month and second on the 21st day of the first month. These were inclusive of the feast of unleavened bread with the leaven (sin) actually began to be removed on the Passover a day of preparation.

The weekly Sabbath was also a holy convocation day and fifty days after the weekly Sabbath following the Passover was the third holy convocation day. The law, which could not give life, was given to the children on that day.

Is this the day that God began to call out a people for his name. Was this day prophetic for the church of the living God that he would build with his Son Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ being the head of the corner, the chief corner stone. What did God give through Jesus, for Jesus had received it from the Father, to those called as a people for his name on that day to set them apart from other people? Is this the day of first fruits spoken of in Numbers 28:26

Does first fruits mean only fruits or is first used because they are first of others to come later?

How much time would pass before the 4th day of convocation?
What will that day be prophetic of concerning the church?
What about the 5th day of holy convocation?
The 6th?
The 7th?

For sure the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holy convocation days directly concern the church, the firstfruits of the Spirit.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Are the Elect of God in Christ 'saved" by Him before actually getting saved by Him?

Isn't the death of jesus ONLY in real sense effectually applied towards us the moment that one believes and receives jesus as Lord, thru the faith God grants towards those whom He chose to save?

that we are still lost and non reconcile to God until we actually believ in jesus?

again, we go back to the beginning.
to what God was doing.
He was writing names in a book.
More properly, these names are imprinted in His mind. Everyone of these individuals are known to Him from before the foundation of the world.
None of them knew Him, obviously.
The Scriptures also state that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Maybe the physical world has not been created yet, this time world we lived in, the fall of Adam had not happened yet, and the owners of those names have not been born yet, but, in as far as the One in Three was concerned, it was as good as done.
That blood was as good as shed, and those sins were as good as washed away.
Why ?
Because the One who decreed it is the God which eternity cannot even contain, how can finite time stop what He purposed to happen ?
That is why I said in another place, THOSE WHOSE NAMES WERE WRITTEN BY GOD IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE WERE NEVER HELL-BOUND.
How could they ?
It was God's purpose that they be His gifts to His Son, and His Son to theirs, and that they all be One in Him, and they all be with Him in Heaven as His Son.
Jesus Christ Himself said none will be lost, save the son of perdition.
Now, somebody's bound to jump in and say, didn't Christ Himself teach and talk more about hell than any other subject ?
Yes, He did.
But where is the Scripture that says He did so because He wanted to scare people into coming to Him ?
Rather, He spoke so much about hell, to magnify the grace and mercy that His Father bestowed on His own, and if you will accept it, for us IN THIS GENERATION, to understand what we were spared from.

What we need to further realize is that the eternal salvation and redemption of His children are totally PASSIVE, and all-encompassing and what I mean by that, for lack of a better term, is that EVERYONE for whom redemption has been authored, is REDEEMED already.
Eternally saved already ?
Yes.
Like I said, the cross is past, the blood is shed, and Jesus Christ now sits an Intercessor in Heaven for His people...ALL OF THEM.
Those who were born before Christ's time, those who were born during Christ's time, and those who were born and will be born after Christ's time, and OUR time.
The blood has already covered, atoned for, and washed each and everyone of them without regard to their statuses and circumstances in this time world.

Now, the question is, will all come to gospel knowledge of their God and Savior ?
Like Paul said, "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", so the answer is no.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom I would like to ask you. Why did God give to the children of Israel the Passover to be observed every year after they departed Egypt? Did that yearly observation of the Passover that had taken place in the pass point to something else to take place in the future? If yes, what?

We both know the answer. The death of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Following the Passover. Is Jesus the Passover Lamb for the church? God gave them seven holy convocations to be kept yearly.

The first on the 15th day of the first month and second on the 21st day of the first month. These were inclusive of the feast of unleavened bread with the leaven (sin) actually began to be removed on the Passover a day of preparation.

The weekly Sabbath was also a holy convocation day and fifty days after the weekly Sabbath following the Passover was the third holy convocation day. The law, which could not give life, was given to the children on that day.

Is this the day that God began to call out a people for his name. Was this day prophetic for the church of the living God that he would build with his Son Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ being the head of the corner, the chief corner stone. What did God give through Jesus, for Jesus had received it from the Father, to those called as a people for his name on that day to set them apart from other people? Is this the day of first fruits spoken of in Numbers 28:26

Does first fruits mean only fruits or is first used because they are first of others to come later?

How much time would pass before the 4th day of convocation?
What will that day be prophetic of concerning the church?
What about the 5th day of holy convocation?
The 6th?
The 7th?

For sure the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th holy convocation days directly concern the church, the firstfruits of the Spirit.

Brother, I agree that Christ is our Passover. But beyond that, I can't comment of the rest of your post because I don't understand it. That's an area where I must admit my ignorance. I'm open to more enlightenment.