The Doctrine of Justification: The True Gospel

Did you not read the link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church I gave on the last page? It says very clearly "our justification comes from the grace of God".

 

I will endeavour to do so tomorrow (GMT) but have to go to Christmas canapes with our bank now...

 

Interesting statement. I guess my 'Saved By Grace' Catholic prayer community needs to find a new name and I need to take my 'Saved By Grace Catholic Prayer Community' bumper sticker off my car.

 

I should say so, since you've already shown that you don't believe in salvation by grace.

 

I apologize for my imprecision. God declares a believer just based on Christ's righteousness, not because the believer is just. In the process of sanctification, we may reach some degree of holiness or inwardly just, but never enough, since God requires perfection to enter the kingdom.


Originally Posted by Tom Butler
We can never be just enough to satisfy God's justice.

I probably should have said we can never be good enough to satisfy God's justice. Only the crucified and risen Christ was able to do that. (Isaiah 53:8 "He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied.")

I think we have to be careful here. Finney erred when he held that through faith we actually become just (or righteous). He was dead wrong.

 

I don't think I can agree with what you are saying here.

I agree that by our own power and will we will never be just enough to satisfy God's requirements. But justification by definition is saying that through Christ's work on the cross, we are made just or made righteous.

Through justification, God makes us righteous and also declares us as righteous. Being righteous does not mean we are perfect and never sin, but that our sins have been paid for. Catholic theology acknowledges this and has lots of words to say about sanctification in the catechism as well.

I don't think you have made a very good argument for why justification is God declaring us just and not also God making us just. I still see them as one and the same.

I also don't see this as a Catholic-Protestant issue but a semantic issue that Protestants would probably disagree over as well.


Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

I think we all know that you believe your church is right and everybody else is wrong as well. If you didn't, why would you be there?

 

That's not exactly true. When you read the Bible, you follow in accordance with scripture as it is applied by the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Cambridge Declaration, and Baptist Distinctives.

 

So if there's something in the 1689 London Confession, Cambride Declaration, or Baptist Distinctives that you don't see eye to eye on, then do you discard it?

 

If you are sincerely following the Catholic faith, yes you should. Go back and read carefully what was quoted straight from the catechism. Here is one paragraph:

Salvation is not due to the grace of God; it is due to man's merit. Through and through the quote emphasizes the merit, the work of man. This is blasphemous. It is quite contrary to what the Bible says about the grace of God:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Which is it? Grace or works? You can't have it both ways. You are either saved entirely by the grace of God, or you are not saved by grace at all, and your religion is a religion of works. The RCC has chosen the latter and has rejected salvation by grace.

 

And rightly so. Yet you're calling out others when they take exception to their church's documents of faith and position. When a Catholic comes here and says they adhere to justification by grace, that person is hounded for differeing from your reading of their church's documents. When a Reformed Baptist such myself comes here and says they're reformed Baptist, you insist they adhere to a particular positional statement. It seems the only one whom you do not require to adhere to those positional positions is yourself.

 

Given that you accused me of not being reformed Baptist without any evidentiary knowlege to the contrary, it's clear that you require more than just a substantial agreement.

That's little more than an excuse for you to just dismiss what anything a Catholic says whenever their comments don't meet with your preconception. Not unlike what you did with me and your preceonception that I wasn't a Reformed Baptist. You don't believe I'm a Reformed Baptist based solely on yoru preconcieved notion, and nothing else. If I say I adhere to Reformed Theology, you'll just dismiss it as "no you don't". It's the same thing you do with Catholics.

I don't defend anything antichrist. I simply don't dismiss people's comments on their personal faith based on my preconception of what their religious beliefs should be. I most certainly don't assume that a person is lost simly because they are Catholic, as some others on the topic have done.

 

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
He said, "Like what?"
I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?"
He said, "Religious."
I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?"
He said, "Christian."
I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist?"
He said, "Baptist!"
I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
He said, Baptist Church of God!"
I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!"
I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!"
I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.