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The drawing of God.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Jul 15, 2017.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    What that verse does not say is all that are drawn will come. It only says:

    1. God will draw all men
    2. Those that come will be raised up.

    It does not say:

    Everyone God draws will come.
     
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  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Wrong again. It says "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Those whom God draws, Christ rises up.
     
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    And the Holy Spirit regenerates and seals them.
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    In His discourse with the multitude in John 6, Jesus said in verse 37, "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." The Father does not send to the Son only those He knows will believe. He sends to the Son those He has chosen. All those that the Father sends to the Son will believe.
     
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  5. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    The drawing of God.

    Sounds like an art class they might have at BYU.
     
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  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another redefinition effort, turning the metaphorical meaning (persuasion, attraction) into compulsion

    .
     
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  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No mail comes to me, except the MAIL MAN draws mail and I will read that mail at the last day.

    So under your logic I get everyone's mail.


     
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    And yet it doesn't say that those who do not come are not drawn.
     
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  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Those who come Christ will rise up. It does not say those who do not come are not drawn, reached out to, by God.
     
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  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That is because the Father is the One sending, and He is only sending those whom He has called. Consider those of the multitude who saw the works of Jesus (John 6:36), but did not believe. Were they in Jesus' presence? Yes. Did they see the works that Jesus performed? Yes. Were they given by the Father to the Son? No. In John 6:44 we read, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him...". So, soteriology speaking*, those who do not come cannot come. Why? Because they have not been called by the Father, so that the Father can give them to the Son.

    *I wrote "soteriology speaking" to separate physical proximity to the call of God. An unbeliever can be physically present when the Gospel is proclaimed, but unless they have been spiritually called by the Father, their ability to hear the Gospel will be fruitless.
     
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  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    And here in lies the problem of reformed theology. Scripture never says this. No where. It does say if you do come it can only happen because you were called (drawn). It never says those who do not come cannot come because they are never drawn.
     
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  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Romans 3:10-12
    [10]As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one.
    [11]No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
    [12]All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.”
     
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  13. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    Respectfully,

    I'm not following this. You can't prove a theological idea by what the Bible does not say.

    John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

    John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

    Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

    Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

    Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

    Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

    1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

    2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

    Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

    John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
     
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  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Using your logic the doctrine of the Trinity is unestablished because it is not plainly stated in scripture.

    Good and necessary consequence (a.k.a. logic) removes the difficultly in understanding John 6. Katarina said it well, "You can't prove a theological idea by what the Bible does not say". When Jesus said in John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him", by necessity He excluded all those who are not drawn. There is no other way to read this verse unless you perform exegetical gymnastics.
     
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  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Paul is quoting psalms not creating new doctrine. If it were new he would have had the visions Peter received and he would have had to bring this new doctrine to the church to be formalized.



    Psalms also says:

    5Yet You have made him a little lower than God,
    And You crown him with glory and majesty!

    So I guess all men for all time are crown with glory and majesty.

    Or do I just need an apostle to quote this to be true for all mankind?
     
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Here we go again, ONE OF these verses is a actual bible verse holy scripture, the other is non-biblical trash.


    A OR B?



    A John 6 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


    B John 6 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and all that the Father draws will come to Me; and I will raise him up on the last day.
     
  17. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Are Paul and the Psalms not correct regarding the human condition?
     
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  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Which one menno? that we are made a little lower than God?
    And we are crowned with glory and majesty?


    The quote had nothing to do with a universal human condition, He was wagging his finger at the Jews quoting the moments they FAILED being no better then gentiles.



    We can keep quoting psalms and applying it to all mankind forever:

    Psalm 139:14
    I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.


    I guess the soul of ALL PEOPLE FOREVER are "very well".


    I don't believe anyone is that stupid, I think your smart.


    Paul is not concluding a council with a new doctrine, he is debating a fresh issue called Judaisers.


    Jews are not Calvinist.

    Where is the logic even inkling of some light remote intelligence to declare Roman's 3 some brand new doctrine?

    Only an idiot thinks somehow a new rule is born.


    I quoted PSALMS. -> Mankind is wonderful.


    I quoted PSALMS. --> Mankind is crowned with glory and majesty.

    So that applies to all mankind. Do you reject the word of God?


    I heard about a Calvinist who's reading comprehension regenerated, he's Catholic now, see what I mean?
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hold on TC....
    Are you saying; ALL THE FATHER GIVES to me Shall come to me? Do you mean All that are given Come to Jesus....
    That would also mean...
    No man can Come ,Unless the Father who sent me DRAWS THEM???

    Are you trying to say NO man can come , unless given By the Father???
    Then you would have us believe what Jesus said......
    ALL THE FATHER GIVES....SHALL COME???

    Is that what you confess?
     
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  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You can spend your time explaining away what God has said. I will take God at his word. Your [Name calling edited] is worthless.
     
    #20 MennoSota, Jul 16, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2017
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