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Featured The effect of Free Will on Scripture.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 1689Dave, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The belief in free will has a major effect on how we understand scripture. This becomes obvious when a free will believer interprets the same verse of scripture differently from a non-free will believer. As an example, Jesus said “whoever believes has eternal life”. The free will believer assumes Jesus means whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. But the other assumes Jesus means believing is a trait or characteristic of those whom God saves. As in “where there is smoke there is fire”.

    Some other examples follow.

    Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

    Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.

    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

    In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.

    1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

    The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

    So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

    “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)
     
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  2. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    · Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)

    Dave this is wrong. Free Will sees this as not a call to obedience but that anyone can believe an not perish unto everlasting life no conditional obedience at all.
     
  3. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    If the OT law assumed free will, how could a just God make threats if the law was disobeyed? If your actions result in punishment, your will is not free from consequences. Therefore, not free at all.

    My view of free will:

    [Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead[G3498] in trespasses and sins;

    Strong's G3498 - nekros

    A. spiritually dead

    i. destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

    ii. inactive as respects doing right

    B. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative


    Dead souls cannot make choices.

    Spiritually dead souls cannot choose spiritual life.

    Physically dead souls cannot choose physical life.

    Eternally dead souls cannot choose eternal life.

    The belief that spiritually dead souls have the authority and power to override the will and sovereignty of God is the most appealing and universal of all of Satan’s lies.

    On the Bondage of the Will - Wikipedia

    Luther's response was to reason that sin incapacitates human beings from working out their own salvation, and that they are completely incapable of bringing themselves to God. As such, there is no free will for humanity because any will they might have is overwhelmed by the influence of sin. Central to his analysis, both of the doctrines under discussion and of Erasmus' specific arguments, are Luther's beliefs concerning the power and complete sovereignty of God.

    Luther concluded that unredeemed human beings are dominated by obstructions; Satan, as the prince of the mortal world, never lets go of what he considers his own unless he is overpowered by a stronger power, i.e. God. When God redeems a person, he redeems the entire person, including the will, which then is liberated to serve God. No one can achieve salvation or redemption through their own willpower—people do not choose between good or evil, because they are naturally dominated by evil, and salvation is simply the product of God unilaterally changing a person's heart and turning them to good ends. Were it not so, Luther contended, God would not be omnipotent and omniscient[citation needed] and would lack total sovereignty over creation. He also held that arguing otherwise was insulting to the glory of God. As such, Luther concluded that Erasmus was not actually a Christian.


    [Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    For sake of argument, let’s assume spiritually dead souls do have free will. Once they are born again into God’s family, are they being obedient to God’s revelation if they invoke their free will.

    I think not.

    [1Co 2:16 KJV] 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    [Phl 2:5 KJV] 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    [1Pe 3:8 KJV] 8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

    How can all Christians have the “mind of Christ” and be “of one mind” if any of us as Christians, invoke our free will?
     
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  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    The requirements for me to buy into no free will:

    Luke 7

    30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.


    Here God has a purpose want and desire of pharisees and lawyers. Something God planned for them, Something God has prepared for them, THEY REJECT IT.

    There is no way God is going to screw up on doing what he desire with a planned purpose for someone and forget to hit the brainwash button of Calvinist regeneration.

    If you don't believe in free will ,only way you can believe this verse, is if you believe God is incompetent.
     
  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    This makes you the savior, not Christ.
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.” Luke 7:30 (KJV 1900)
     
  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no, He offers to save us, We can only accept His offer, We have no power to help ourselves
     
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    = you save yourself. If God saves you, your will never enters into it.
     
  9. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    I did not make my position clear. I do not in any way endorse or condone belief in free will.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding.
     
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  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    To address the effects of free will, lets start at the beginning

    This Old Line Sovereign Grace Baptist brother doesn't believe in free will, in a salvation perspective... The only time I find in scripture where man had free will was in the garden and he abused the free will he had.

    Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

    2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    I don't have to tell you all how that turned out!

    The next time we find free will was in another garden with another man and he didn't exercise his free will, he carried out the will of another.

    John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Now I know what you free will brethren are thinking, you are forgetting these verses


    3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    Can I ask you free will brethren a question?... WHAT MAN?... You will say any man can?... Only one man could and did!... Jesus Christ the Son Of God!

    That's why I'm an Old Line Sovereign Grace Baptist and you are free will... Brother Glen:)

    Btw... I did not say you were not saved, but according to scripture, you just have the wrong perspective!
     
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  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    acceptance of a free gift from a omnipotent God is not saving ourselves. We are already condemned , does rejecting Him, condemn us further?
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Were you forced to write this post or did you exercise free will?
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Even the scripture you quote shows clearly that Salvation is available to who so ever. Not a particular few. It seems you and of course other Calvinist. are the ones who misinterpret scripture.

    [QUOTE="1689Dave, post: 2544766, member: 14074"
    Some other examples follow.

    Jesus said “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16 (KJV 1900)
    [/QUOTE]

    Again trying to make it say something other than what it clearly states

    [QUOTE="1689Dave, post: 2544766, member: 14074"
    Again, notice how we can read this passage and have two different results. Free Will sees this passage as law calling for obedience. Assuming whoever chooses to believe should not perish. But the other sees believing as evidence God saved the person or they would not believe. Both claim salvation by grace. Many think grace is conditional as with any law. That is, grace provides a new lesser law based on believing. Through which people can choose to believe and save themselves. And they feel comfortable reading salvation passages as law.
    [/QUOTE]

    Calvinist see what they want and interpret scripture to support there view but a Child would think your wrong. I don't see as Law calling for obedince. Now you're even trying to do our thinking for us

    [QUOTE="1689Dave, post: 2544766, member: 14074"
    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)

    In this passage, grace is the opposite of law. Grace means “The undeserved favor of God toward humans.”1 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6 (KJV 1900). So conditional grace turns scripture into a lesser law and salvation into works of obedience. Where grace alone sees faith and obedience as fruits of salvation by grace.
    [/QUOTE]

    Absolutely not true at all

    [QUOTE="1689Dave, post: 2544766, member: 14074"
    1Fee, G. D., & Hubbard, R. L., Jr. (Eds.). (2011). The Eerdmans Companion to the Bible (p. 751). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

    The OT law assumed free will and God held Israel accountable based on their works. God threatened sickness and war, famine and pestilence when Israel did not obey the Law. He also promised rewards for obedience. But he based his rewards on obedience, not on grace. Grace demands no obedience, but always results in obedience motivated by love for God. So in this case, the few God saved by grace in the OT kept the Law as a result of their salvation.

    So it is important to see scripture in the right frame of mind. In the Old Testament, the right frame of mind was according to Law and free will. In the New Testament, the right frame of mind is grace. Where believing and obedience serve as evidence of God’s grace in our lives. And as proof of our salvation. But free will imported into the New Testament, where the grace view is possible, only places us back under the law that could never save.

    “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of [God’s] debt.” Romans 4:4 (KJV 1900)[/QUOTE]

    The right frame of mind is not how you look at scripture. If man blinks it's the Law. Everything to Calvinist is Law. It's too bad that you see it with so much confusion is your mind
    MB
     
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Do you guys take a pill, "CURE YOURSELF" and then send Doctors a bill?
     
  15. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525"

    Excerpts from the above document

    An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie

    The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.

    Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair

    Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin

    Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.

    Freewill is nothing but the chiefest enemy of righteousness and of man s salvation ; because it cannot be, but that some amongst these Jews and Gentiles have acted and endeavoured with the uttermost power of Freewill; and yet with this very Freewill have done nothing but wage war against grace.

    If the just man lives by faith, he that hath not faith is not just; and, if not just, he is a sinner. If whatsoever be not of faith is sin, whatever is done by mere Freewill is sin ; because Freewill has nothing to do with faith, but is by the supposition perfectly distinct from it : neither has faith any thing to do with Freewill, but has another origin. Whatsoever it doth therefore, not being of faith, is sin. So that Freewill is only sin.
     
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  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God does not want nor will for you to sin ever again, He does not will for you to sin today nor tomorrow. So if you do who willed it?

    Here is a novel idea when you sin it is your fault not God's will.
     
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no, Luther includes the ability to exercise our choices as free will, this is wrong, the prisoner has free will even though no power to execute that will.. Free will is separate. . We have no power to save our selves but can understand our situation or need and desire salvation. That desire is free will
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Original Sin and the Fall of Adam rendered free will in the absolute sense as many define it null and void!
     
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no
    no, free will exists to sin or not to sin,,, rather to follow God or ourselves, if we choice salvation in free will, then not ony does God choose unto salvation but originally chose sin.
    Free Will exists to continue to sin for the unsaved and to follow God instead

    We cannot blame Adam for our sin

    Eze 18:20

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
     
  20. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I was willingly saved so your calling freewill a lie does not hold water. I surrendered of my own freewill.With my freewill I chose to believe the gospel. Thinking your saved with out faith is sin because faith comes by hearing not by regeneration. Men are not saved so they can obtain faith. Men have faith so they can be saved. You have no scripture that says man is saved so he can have faith.
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    This verse tells us we must believe first not afterwards..

    Freewill doesn't have the power to save. It is of faith that comes through hearing the gospel that we obtain Salvation. Freewill is the choice to believe. In fact your Salvation came the same way you just don't want to admit it.
    2Co 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. You simply cannot be saved unless you are willing.
    MB
     
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