The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[RON35951]

correction- Bakers Theological Dictionary is not public domain and is copyrighted. I hope I did not violate the copyright in my above post. If I did I apologize to Baker Book House Company.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by RON35951:
correction- Bakers Theological Dictionary is not public domain and is copyrighted. I hope I did not violate the copyright in my above post. If I did I apologize to Baker Book House Company.

It is a great post anyhow! Thanks.

 

[billwald]

There is absolutly no way, no procedure, no method, no interpretation that will identify the elect.

 

[billwald]

The standard, common, and working definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor."

 

[Wes Outwest]

If the definition of Grace is "Unmerited favor", and I agree that it is, then someone please explain HOW grace saves! What is the mechanism of Salvation performed by Grace? How does it work?

 

[RON35951]

God saves us even though we do not deserve it. That is Grace.

There is no mechanism, God just shows us unmerited favor and draws us to him.

 

[RON35951]

God saves us even though we do not deserve it. That is Grace.

That is what makes us Elect.

God desires that all would come to him, but we are sinners and run from God just as Adam did. No one will come to God through there on accord, because our will is so stained with sin.

Because our God is a just and merciful God, he provided a payment for our sins and draws thse that he chooses to him. These are to be witnesses to the rest of the world of Gods love and mercy, but also his justice and hatred of sin.

Sadly the world will not listen. But it is not God that sends them to hell it is thier on love of thier sinful desires. God provided payment through his Son's sacrifice on the cross and he has provided witnesses of this sacrifice through those that he calls to him, but mankind has rejected God, his grace and his mercy. Only the Elect that he has chosen as his messengers will be saved.

Thank God that he has chosen you as a messenger and work hard to warn the world of his impending judgement. If we cannot keep them from Hell they should at least have to wrestle our arms from around thier knees to get thier.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
If the definition of Grace is "Unmerited favor", and I agree that it is, then someone please explain HOW grace saves! What is the mechanism of Salvation performed by Grace? How does it work?

WES, OUTWEST

Just ask yourself the simple question; WHO SAVES? Then perhaps you will have an answer to your question. Until YOU understand WHO SAVES you will never understand GRACE.

OldRegular

 

[Wes Outwest]

That's not an answer, that is a dodge!

Since by your answer, you are indicating that you know all about Grace, tell me how does grace actually save?

 

[RON35951]

God saves, grace is an attribute of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

If the definition of Grace is "Unmerited favor", and I agree that it is, then someone please explain HOW grace saves! What is the mechanism of Salvation performed by Grace? How does it work?

Original response by OldRegular:

WES, OUTWEST
Just ask yourself the simple question; WHO SAVES? Then perhaps you will have an answer to your question. Until YOU understand WHO SAVES you will never understand GRACE.

OldRegular

Counter response posted by Wes, Outwest:
That's not an answer, that is a dodge!

Since by your answer, you are indicating that you know all about Grace, tell me how does grace actually save?

I understand enough about the Grace of God to know that without His Grace I would still be lost.

In all the discussion topics on this Forum you appear to have the tendancy to deny that God can accomplish that which He chooses to do. I assume you believe that God is the Creator. Do you understand how God actually created all that exists out of nothing? Why is it so difficult for you to believe that God, supernaturally, can save one who is lost and that He does so simply out of His unmerited favor?

Under Forum rules I must assume that you have experienced the Grace of God in salvation but perhaps you saved yourself.

Reading your posts on this Forum I wonder if your purpose is just to create dissension or if you really want to enter into a serious discussion.

Perhaps it would help if you would read the following Scripture:
John 3:5-8
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Without God's Grace you would not only be lost, you would never have lived!

 

[Bro. James]

Grace equals unmerited favor.

The mechanism? Divine providence, love, mercy, and longsuffering. God cannot be defined--especially using material words.

God cannot be defined in human terms.

All we can do is bow in awe and declare: My God, how great thou art.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by RON35951:
God saves, grace is an attribute of God.

That is THE ANSWER!

Thank you RON35951!

GRACE is an attribute, Something true of the one possessing it. Grace is behavioral in nature, describing the behavior of the one possessing it. As with all attributes there is no power in the attribute, the power resides IN and with the one possessing the attribute.

So Grace does not save! God does. Paul makes that statement in Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by God's grace, you are saved through faith, and not of yourselves, "Being SAVED" is the gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast! God's grace is the mode He is in for us to get saved, it is not a tool that does the saving, because without it's possessor, Grace is powerless to do anything.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Grace equals unmerited favor.

The mechanism? Divine providence, love, mercy, and longsuffering. God cannot be defined--especially using material words.

God cannot be defined in human terms.

All we can do is bow in awe and declare: My God, how great thou art.

Selah,

Bro. James

That's nice Bro. James, but it misses the wall the target affixed to! We do have words, words have meanings, and often in religion, meanings are nothing more than emotions assigned to them by "learned scholars". That's what yours sounds like.

We can describe God with all the words the scriptures contain about him. It is through the scriptures that God reveals himself to man! Scriptures are words that have meanings.

Is it easy? NO! It is indeed quite difficult and much study is necessary to make the connections and end up with the truth. One must overcome the emotions, to have a clear understanding.

 

[Bro. James]

Try this for a mechanism of grace:

the shed blood of Jesus Christ applied to the mercy seat--the just for the unjust--the Lamb of God, slain from before the foundation of the world.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The wages of sin is death--the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ,the Lord.

A little child can understand this--many "learned" scholars stumble at such theology. See John Ch. 3: Jesus and Nicodemus--a Master of Israel. What did Jesus tell Him? "You must be born again".

That applies to all of us--"learned" or not.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Try this for a mechanism of grace:

the shed blood of Jesus Christ applied to the mercy seat--the just for the unjust--the Lamb of God, slain from before the foundation of the world.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. The wages of sin is death--the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ,the Lord.

A little child can understand this--many "learned" scholars stumble at such theology. See John Ch. 3: Jesus and Nicodemus--a Master of Israel. What did Jesus tell Him? "You must be born again".

That applies to all of us--"learned" or not.

Selah,

Bro. James

What you describe are events that take place because God's grace is present, and all of that is just fine, but it doesn't say how grace works! It doesn't say that Grace has any power to save.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by RON35951:

God saves, grace is an attribute of God.

Response posted by Wes, Outwest:

That is THE ANSWER!

Thank you RON35951!

GRACE is an attribute, Something true of the one possessing it. Grace is behavioral in nature, describing the behavior of the one possessing it. As with all attributes there is no power in the attribute, the power resides IN and with the one possessing the attribute.

So Grace does not save! God does. Paul makes that statement in Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by God's grace, you are saved through faith, and not of yourselves, "Being SAVED" is the gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast! God's grace is the mode He is in for us to get saved, it is not a tool that does the saving, because without it's possessor, Grace is powerless to do anything.

Response posted by OldRegular:
WES,OUTWEST
On an an earlier post I asked:

Just ask yourself the simple question; WHO SAVES? Then perhaps you will have an answer to your question. Until YOU understand WHO SAVES you will never understand GRACE.

Your response was no response:

That's not an answer, that is a dodge!

Since by your answer, you are indicating that you know all about Grace, tell me how does grace actually save?

From your response to RON35951 it appears that I was correct in questioning if your posts on this Forum were just to create dissension. Throughout this thread and others you have consistently argued that it is man’s faith that saves.

You earlier argued, perhaps on another thread, that God had no Faith to give in response to the passage of Scripture Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:. It is refreshing to see you admit that grace is an attribute of God.

As far as I know no one on this thread who has responded to your posts has claimed anything other than that God Saves. I tried to elicit that response from you in the post quoted above but had no success. I am glad you have finally seen the light. Hold on to it.

 

[OldRegular]

By the way Wes I am glad you read some posts as you did that of RON35951 who stated in his 11:18 AM post "God Saves". Had you read my earlier post [8:44 AM] you would have read: "Why is it so difficult for you to believe that God, supernaturally, can save one who is lost and that He does so simply out of His unmerited favor?" Apparently the sentence had too many words!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
By the way Wes I am glad you read some posts as you did that of RON35951 who stated in his 11:18 AM post "God Saves". Had you read my earlier post [8:44 AM] you would have read: "Why is it so difficult for you to believe that God, supernaturally, can save one who is lost and that He does so simply out of His unmerited favor?" Apparently the sentence had too many words!

Not what you think! You have consistantly stated the we are saved by grace. Now you change your tune and say that God saves, supernaturally. Everything God does is supernatural!

Do you agree that Grace has no power to save and that grace is an attribute of the one possessing it?