The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[Wes Outwest]

Faith is not a gift of God, it is what man must possess in order to be saved.

Faith is kind of like a "mark", when one believes one becomes marked for salvation! When one dies the natural death, the faith mark stays with the spirit that departs the flesh. It is by that mark that we who believe in Jesus are separated like the sheep from the goats.

We come to faith while God's grace remains present for mankind. Yes we may even die this natural life under God's grace, but we are not saved BY grace, we Are saved by God!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
By the way Wes I am glad you read some posts as you did that of RON35951 who stated in his 11:18 AM post "God Saves". Had you read my earlier post [8:44 AM] you would have read: "Why is it so difficult for you to believe that God, supernaturally, can save one who is lost and that He does so simply out of His unmerited favor?" Apparently the sentence had too many words!

Not what you think! You have consistantly stated the we are saved by grace. Now you change your tune and say that God saves, supernaturally. Everything God does is supernatural!

Do you agree that Grace has no power to save and that grace is an attribute of the one possessing it? </font>[/QUOTE]Response by OldRegular

I agree that you have an unusual ability to twist anything that anyone says that does not agree with your fallacious ideas.

No one on this thread, as far as I am aware, has argued that grace had the power to save. We have simply quoted the Scripture time and again which states [Ephesians 2:8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Your inability to accept this simple statement which God caused the Apostle Paul to write precipitated all the debate.

You have never stated that God saves until RON35951 posted his remarks. You have consistently argued that we are saved by faith and that faith is not the gift of God but is an attribute of man. You have even argued falsely that God could not give man faith because God posessed no faith; Unbelievable!; Wes, Outwest placing limits on what God could and could not do! So if anyone has changed their tune it is you.

I will repeat again in a slightly different way; most of those people on this thread who have attempted to educate you are perfectly aware that GOD SAVES. However, you consistently made the point that man's inherent faith was the instrument of salvation. So if anyone has changed their tune it is you.

But, WES. OUTWEST, you are to be congratulated for finally coming to the knowledge of the truth. Hold on to it lest you let it slip away and you fall back again into the grevious error that man, not God, is the author of his Salvation.

You started this thread asking for a clear definition of election. I believe you finally get it.

Salvation, from being
1. chosen by God unto Salvation,
2. regenerated [made spiritually alive] by the Holy Spirit,
3. effectually called,
4. justifified, and finally,
5. glorified,
is by the Sovereign Grace of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Faith is not a gift of God, it is what man must possess in order to be saved.

Faith is kind of like a "mark", when one believes one becomes marked for salvation! When one dies the natural death, the faith mark stays with the spirit that departs the flesh. It is by that mark that we who believe in Jesus are separated like the sheep from the goats.

We come to faith while God's grace remains present for mankind. Yes we may even die this natural life under God's grace, but we are not saved BY grace, we Are saved by God!

Wes, Wes

I spent all that time on my previous post and you have already fallen from Grace stating: Faith is not a gift of God, it is what man must possess in order to be saved.

I was so hopeful that you had come to the knowledge of the truth that it is God who by His Grace Saves. Now I must confess my error. You still contend that man is still the author of his salvation. [By the way, I usually try to capitalize the S in Salvation but I used a small s in the previous sentence because if man is the author of his salvation he has got a small salvation, if at all.]

By the way what does that "faith mark look like" perhaps it is 666 upside down, that is 999. Surely God would have no trouble keeping track of those who are His if they have a 999 on their foreheads. Actually I would prefer something like 777 since seven is supposed to represent biblical perfection.

 

[Wes Outwest]

You have never stated that God saves until RON35951 posted his remarks. You have consistently argued that we are saved by faith and that faith is not the gift of God but is an attribute of man.

You don't read very well. (1) I have on numerous occasions stated loudly and clearly that it is God that saves, and he only saves those who have faith in him.

(2)I have stated my belief that we are saved THROUGH faith, and that faith is not a gift of God but comes to man by means of Knowledge provided by "hearing the word of God". Man is made that way, with the ability to develop faith in virtually anything he can believe.

(3)The only time I've said that we are saved by faith is when I am quoting someone who said it.

I have said at times that we are saved by our faith in God, but that We do the faithing, God does the saving.

I will repeat again in a slightly different way; most of those people on this thread who have attempted to educate you are perfectly aware that GOD SAVES. However, you consistently made the point that man's inherent faith was the instrument of salvation. So if anyone has changed their tune it is you.

Let me clear it up for you...again. God saves no one who lacks faith in Him.

Sin is not a factor in man's salvation because God the son paid the penalty for sin, so that man can, THROUGH FAITH, have everlasting life...Salvation!

I was so hopeful that you had come to the knowledge of the truth that it is God who by His Grace Saves. Now I must confess my error. You still contend that man is still the author of his salvation. [By the way, I usually try to capitalize the S in Salvation but I used a small s in the previous sentence because if man is the author of his salvation he has got a small salvation, if at all.

I have no contention whatever that Man is the author of his salvation. Not one miniscule jot or tittle of man's salvation is the result of man works. However, and conversely, man cannot be saved unless man has as a possession, Faith in God. FAITH cannot come from God because God has none to give. But he certainly gives us every reason and motivation to have faith, and he gives us the source of Knowledge that produces in us the required faith for our salvation.

No sir you err because you do not understand that throughout the old testament, and the new testament, it is ONLY those with faith that are saved! No one lacking faith gets saved.

You err, when you fail to recognise that faith is strictly Human. There is no faith requirement for any other species in God's creation, and God has no faith to give to man.

You err, when you fail to see the truth in scripture regarding human salvation, (that is, salvation OF humans, not salvation produced BY humans).

Regardless of whether or not you capitalise salvation, one is either completely saved or one is not saved at all! There is no big vs little salvation!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

I have no contention whatever that Man is the author of his salvation. Not one miniscule jot or tittle of man's salvation is the result of man works. However, and conversely, man cannot be saved unless man has as a possession, Faith in God. FAITH cannot come from God because God has none to give. But he certainly gives us every reason and motivation to have faith, and he gives us the source of Knowledge that produces in us the required faith for our salvation.

Wes, Wes, Wes,

Faith is either the gift of God as Scripture states or it is the work of man as you contend. Salvation that is the work of man is small salvation, actually no salvation.

By the way it is completely ridiculous to contend that God cannot give faith and is contrary to Scripture [Ephesians 2:8]. If God can creat the universe out of nothing then He can give man faith.

 

[OldRegular]

Wes

You seem to believe that the gift in Ephesians 2:8 is Salvation. Yet you argue that I can't get that gift without faith. If Salvation is a gift why do I have to come up with the faith by which to purchase it?

 

[OldRegular]

1 Corinthians 12:3-11

3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

If God has no faith to give where did the Holy Spirit get the faith He dispenses above? Curious!

 

[Wes Outwest]

OldRegular,

Simple to confound the wise.

God said from Genesis to Revelation, that Salvation is THROUGH FAITH! meaning that faith is the Condition of man, whereby man is saved. The MEANS (the one who performs salvation) IS God! The Time of God's Salvation is while God's grace toward man is present! Thus we are saved by GOD in His grace, THROUGH our FAITH! Salvation is the Gift of God. Salvation, unlike Grace, Faith, Mercy, Justice, etc, is that which God does give to man in a form that can be recieved, and is truly a gift that man can receive.

In Ephesians 2:8 The Gift of God is SALVATION! In Johh 3:16 The gift of God, to those who believe in HIS son, is SALVATION! Abraham's Faith was counted to him as Righteousness and it is only the righteous who are Saved by God throughout the OT! FAITH in the Old Testament is the SAME as FAITH in the New Testament! It is the condition of the human spirit! The human spirit which has "the knowledge of good and evil" is "Born Again", by hearing the word of God and believing. The change in old nature and new nature is manifest in the deeds and demeanor of the one who is so changed, and that change comes out of Knowledge. God said, "For lack of knowledge, my people perish".

The Gift of God is His Son, "the living Word", who taught certain men whom we know as the apostles, given by The Father to the Son, John 17, and the gift included the Teachings of the Apostles given to us in writing.

Purchase Salvation? Are You out of your mind? You cannot purchase that which is given, the giver does not accept "exchange" for his Gift of Salvation, else it is NOT A GIFT! But instead is a commodity of exchange. Salvation is the unilateral gift of God given by Him to those who are wearing pink shirts, Not blue, or green or any other color, just pink! Pink is the color of our shirt that draws God's attention to us and makes him want to give us his gift of SALVATION.

"Pink shirt" in the above paragraph represents FAITH. We may well have to "purchase" faith through our effort to gain the Knowledge that keeps us from Perishing. Bible study is a work, but the faith gained by bible study is not a work it is the payoff of doing the work. Listening to boring preachers may well be a work too! Doing the things that reinforce our "faith" are works too, but the faith is not a work, it is the reward for doing those things that are works. The works that we do, allow us to purchase the pink shirt, which worn and kept spotless is what God sees in us for which he gives us the Gift of Salvation!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
1 Corinthians 12:3-11

3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

If God has no faith to give where did the Holy Spirit get the faith He dispenses above? Curious!

Do you see in this passage Paul saying that the one who receives the gift of the word of wisdom as not having faith?
How about the one who gifted with administrations?
How about the one gifted with healing?
How about the miracle worker? Etc.

Are they deprived of FAITH because the spirit gives a "gift of Faith" to another?

Get real! You are not rightly dividing the word of truth!

Paul is illustrating the DIVERSITY of conditions that comprise the Church. The spirit is the Christian Spirit, that which distinguishes Christianity from all of the rest of the worlds religions. From the Christian spirit come all of the Gifts that make the Christian church what it is.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. All, no matter what other gifts they may have been given, must arrive at FAITH in the same manner as all others, and that is through hearing the Word of God!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
1 Corinthians 12:3-11

3. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

If God has no faith to give where did the Holy Spirit get the faith He dispenses above? Curious!

Partial Response posted by Wes, Outwest:
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. All, no matter what other gifts they may have been given, must arrive at FAITH in the same manner as all others, and that is through hearing the Word of God!

1 Corinthians 12:9 above states very clearly that Faith is a gift of God. Are you disputing Scripture, Wes, Outwest???? Unfortunately not only are you disputing Scripture you are questioning the ability of God to do that which He chooses.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I am disputing YOUR INTERPRETATION of scripture, nothing more!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
OldRegular,

FAITH in the Old Testament is the SAME as FAITH in the New Testament! It is the condition of the human spirit!

Response posted by OldRegular:
Where in Scripture do you find that faith is a condition of the human spirit. If that were true why did only three of the four people in the parable of the sower receive salvation?

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Purchase Salvation? Are You out of your mind? You cannot purchase that which is given, the giver does not accept "exchange" for his Gift of Salvation, else it is NOT A GIFT!

Response posted by OldRegullar:
You are the one who argues that in order to receive Salvation we must do something. That something is to exercise faith which you state above is the condition of the human spirit. Therefore, I exchange my faith, which is a condition of my spirit, for Salvation which God then gives to me. If you don't like the word purchase then how does "barter" fit your doctrine?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
OldRegular,

FAITH in the Old Testament is the SAME as FAITH in the New Testament! It is the condition of the human spirit!

Response posted by OldRegular:
Where in Scripture do you find that faith is a condition of the human spirit. If that were true why did only three of the four people in the parable of the sower receive salvation?

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Purchase Salvation? Are You out of your mind? You cannot purchase that which is given, the giver does not accept "exchange" for his Gift of Salvation, else it is NOT A GIFT!

Response posted by OldRegullar:
You are the one who argues that in order to receive Salvation we must do something. That something is to exercise faith which you state above is the condition of the human spirit. Therefore, you exchange your faith, which is a condition of your spirit, for Salvation which God then gives to you. If you don't like the word purchase then how does "barter" fit your doctrine?

Correction posted by OldRegular:
I corrected the above post to use the second person in the last paragraph when referring to Wes, Outwest and his doctrine.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Response posted by OldRegullar:
You are the one who argues that in order to receive Salvation we must do something. That something is to exercise faith which you state above is the condition of the human spirit. Therefore, I exchange my faith, which is a condition of my spirit, for Salvation which God then gives to me. If you don't like the word purchase then how does "barter" fit your doctrine?

NO! You fail to communicate the truth of what I've said. Faith is not what you do, it is what you have as a result of what you do with what you've been given! We've been given the Holy Word of God. We are supposed to Hear the Word of God, and from hearing, establish faith in what we've heard!

Why do you insist on failing to understand?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Where in Scripture do you find that faith is a condition of the human spirit. If that were true why did only three of the four people in the parable of the sower receive salvation?

Where do you find that it is not?

Faith Cannot be a work, else God would not require it of us for our salvation! Salvation is "not of works lest any man should boast".

If as I have stated, faith is not a work, then what is it? Faith is not a gift even though Paul in a scripture that you missuse says that the Spirit gives it to some. By the way, Paul is describing the church in that scripture and not the general population of the world.

Faith is not a Work, and is not a gift, have you got any other ideas of what it could be? Think it through before replying with your usual!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Response posted by OldRegullar:
You are the one who argues that in order to receive Salvation we must do something. That something is to exercise faith which you state above is the condition of the human spirit. Therefore, I exchange my faith, which is a condition of my spirit, for Salvation which God then gives to me. If you don't like the word purchase then how does "barter" fit your doctrine?

NO! You fail to communicate the truth of what I've said. Faith is not what you do, it is what you have as a result of what you do with what you've been given! We've been given the Holy Word of God. We are supposed to Hear the Word of God, and from hearing, establish faith in what we've heard!

Why do you insist on failing to understand? </font>[/QUOTE]You said very clearly that faith is the condition of the human spirit. Why do some people exercise that faith while others do not?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. You tell us that God can not give man faith because God has no faith to give. [Even though Scripture states otherwise.] Are you now claiming that man can generate that faith, which God cannot give, within himself by hearing the word of God. Therefore sinful, impotent man can do something simply by hearing the Word of God that Omnipotent God cannot do. Have I got it correct?

 

[Wes Outwest]

You said very clearly that faith is the condition of the human spirit. Why do some people exercise that faith while others do not?

That is TRUE! Faith is a condition of the human spirit. It is the result of Hearing the Word of God which was given to us for the purpose of us gaining Knowledge of the Holy. It is that knowledge that when "taken into the brain" is used by the spirit to form FAITH. Yes, man can have faith in virtually anything that he finds "believeable". One has to "hear" before on can believe, one has to have initial belief before the Spirit condition is changed from doubt to faith.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. You tell us that God can not give man faith because God has no faith to give. [Even though Scripture states otherwise.]

Paul is addressing the functionality of the church, do you have any other references that declare that God gives faith to man?

... Are you now claiming that man can generate that faith, which God cannot give, within himself by hearing the word of God. Therefore sinful, impotent man can do something simply by hearing the Word of God that Omnipotent God cannot do. Have I got it correct?

If you truly do not understand the natural, how will you ever understand the Spiritual?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

If you truly do not understand the natural, how will you ever understand the Spiritual?

Oh I understand the natural. I just read the Apostle Paul: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[1 Corinthians 2:14] I heartedly recommend that you study this Scripture, it completely refutes your contention that saving faith is the condition of the human spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. You tell us that God can not give man faith because God has no faith to give. [Even though Scripture states otherwise.]

Paul is addressing the functionality of the church, do you have any other references that declare that God gives faith to man?
</font>[/QUOTE]Then are you conceding that God gives faith even though you state God has no faith to give?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

If you truly do not understand the natural, how will you ever understand the Spiritual?

Oh I understand the natural. I just read the Apostle Paul: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[1 Corinthians 2:14] I heartedly recommend that you study this Scripture, it completely refutes your contention that saving faith is the condition of the human spirit. </font>

1 Cor 2:14. The natural person has no room for the gifts of God's Spirit; to him they are folly; he cannot recognise them, because their value can be assessed only in the Spirit.

You obviously do not understand the natural or you would understand that the natural man gets faith, possesses faith, and can increase in Faith. NO I am not talking about Faith in God, I am talking about faith, human faith, the only kind of faith there is!

You want to say that faith only comes from God. Well where did the natural man get his faith in money, in his "natural abilities", in his spouse, in his job, in his...? Where does natural man get faith?

If you use your 'natural man' ability to think, I'm confident you will recognize that, "Yes, man does have faith outside of religion". If he didn't, absolutely no human accomplishments would be made, as every human accomplishment begins with an idea and the faith to make it a reality.

NOW, WHERE DOES NATURAL MAN GET FAITH, IF FAITH IS A GIFT OF GOD?