The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Fact, Faith & Feeling:
Hey Wes. Although I like Scott and I do not want to offend him, he has wrongly associated merit, in the sense of earning something, with choice. He has done this because he is trying to fully reconcile the issue of faith and belief, and one choosing to love God, with Calvinism.

That really isn't true FFF. And by the way, I like you to.

What I am trying to reconcile is exactly what I am arguing with you all over. Why biblically speaking does one person say "yes" while the other says "no". I am trying to reconcile why the Bible teaches salvation through faith but also says that an omniscient God who knows the future elected us before the foundation of the world. I am trying to reconcile the facts that within the context of a single thought John would declare that as many as believe are given the power to become the sons of God and also that these same people were not born (spiritually) of their own will but by the will of God.

I tried to reconcile the Bible to the implicit arminianism we were taught growing up but it simply doesn't answer the fundamental question biblically.

To do this all of man’s will, including that provided him by God for the express purpose of choosing to love Him or not, must be done away with theologically.

That isn't true either. The blind man that Jesus healed was bound by his affliction. It would be the height of non-sense to say that his will was violated much less done away with because he could by his own nature and will see after Christ healed him.

Likewise, it would be ridiculous to say that Lazarus' will was violated when Christ raised him from the dead or that living wasn't perfectly natural for him afterwards.

Both of death and blindness are used in the Bible to illustrate the unregenerate state. It is no more a violation of a person's will when the Holy Spirit quickens them spiritually than it was when Jesus quickened Lazarus physically. When someone is resurrected physically or spiritually they of their own free will do that which comes "natural". A spiritually regenerate person repents and believes. One who remains dead in trespasses and sins does not... like the great number of physically dead people Jesus walked past the graves of to get to Lazarus.

Of course for God to really be not willing that any should perish, He must, as an express part of His divine will, provide man with the capacity to choose.

Man does have the capacity to choose... and left to his own "dead in sin", unregenerate will, he will always reject the gospel in favor of his own way.

Notice that even our ability to choose is of the will of God, so all things are according to His will, just as scripture soundly proclaims.

Our ability to choose is of our spiritual nature. I Corinthians tells us clearly that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit.

Choosing Jesus is a heart matter, it depends solely on who you choose to love. There will be no sense of merit among believers in heaven on this matter, just sadness regarding those who chose not to love our Lord.

So in other words, if one brother chose to love a saint resulting in a long productive marriage while the other chose to love and marry the town tramp resulting in him dying of an STD at 25, there would be no sense of merit in those choices?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A decision is an action that has consequences.

A decision is not an action, it is a mental focus that results in actions that have consequences. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, A decision is the conclusion of a process of thought. It is an action that shapes behavior.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I hope that one of the two of you will simply cut to the bottom line. If two people are given the same opportunity to choose to believe, why does one believe while the other doesn't?

with two people given the same opportunity, there is no bottom line to cut to, unless you know the detail history of each of the parties, and can determine exactly what causes their individual choice! No one man can see the content of another's spirit, only God's Spirit can do that.

So you can stop asking that inane question because there is no right answer and no wrong answer, only an individually unique answer for each unique individual.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A decision is an action that has consequences.

A decision is not an action, it is a mental focus that results in actions that have consequences. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, A decision is the conclusion of a process of thought. It is an action that shapes behavior.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I hope that one of the two of you will simply cut to the bottom line. If two people are given the same opportunity to choose to believe, why does one believe while the other doesn't?

with two people given the same opportunity, there is no bottom line to cut to, unless you know the detail history of each of the parties, and can determine exactly what causes their individual choice! No one man can see the content of another's spirit, only God's Spirit can do that.

So you can stop asking that inane question because there is no right answer and no wrong answer, only an individually unique answer for each unique individual. </font>[/QUOTE]Who controls those circumstances?

 

[Scott J]

BTW, a question isn't inane simply because you don't like the implications of the only honest answer you can give.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A decision is an action that has consequences.

A decision is not an action, it is a mental focus that results in actions that have consequences. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, A decision is the conclusion of a process of thought. It is an action that shapes behavior. </font>[/QUOTE]A decision is not an action! If you come to a fork in the road you must decide which way to go, then take action to go they way you have decided! A decision IS NOT an action!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I hope that one of the two of you will simply cut to the bottom line. If two people are given the same opportunity to choose to believe, why does one believe while the other doesn't?

with two people given the same opportunity, there is no bottom line to cut to, unless you know the detail history of each of the parties, and can determine exactly what causes their individual choice! No one man can see the content of another's spirit, only God's Spirit can do that.

So you can stop asking that inane question because there is no right answer and no wrong answer, only an individually unique answer for each unique individual. </font>[/QUOTE]Who controls those circumstances? </font>[/QUOTE]Depends on the persuasion of whomever you ask!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
BTW, a question isn't inane simply because you don't like the implications of the only honest answer you can give.

A question is inane when any answer is true!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I hope that one of the two of you will simply cut to the bottom line. If two people are given the same opportunity to choose to believe, why does one believe while the other doesn't?

with two people given the same opportunity, there is no bottom line to cut to, unless you know the detail history of each of the parties, and can determine exactly what causes their individual choice! No one man can see the content of another's spirit, only God's Spirit can do that.

So you can stop asking that inane question because there is no right answer and no wrong answer, only an individually unique answer for each unique individual. </font>[/QUOTE]Who controls those circumstances? </font>[/QUOTE]Depends on the persuasion of whomever you ask! </font>[/QUOTE]No it doesn't. It doesn't at all. That answer is INANE... called relativism I believe... and it has no basis in scripture.

Truth is truth regardless of one's persuasion or perspective.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A decision is an action that has consequences.

A decision is not an action, it is a mental focus that results in actions that have consequences. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, A decision is the conclusion of a process of thought. It is an action that shapes behavior. </font>[/QUOTE]A decision is not an action! If you come to a fork in the road you must decide which way to go, then take action to go they way you have decided! A decision IS NOT an action! </font>[/QUOTE]When you come to a fork in a road, you evaluate your options. If you make a good evaluation and choose the road that gets you where you want to go then that choice has merit. If you evaluate poorly and take the wrong road, that choice has negative consequences for which you are responsible.

A decision is the end point of an evaluative process. It is an action in and of itself. It is not simply the cause of an action it is the result of actions (thought processes).

You can try to argue semantics all you want but you are simply wrong about this... and even if you weren't, the decision STILL HAS MERIT. That is contradictory to "unmerited favor". If you make a good decision, whether you admit it is an act by you or not, and it results in a positive outcome then you deserve merit for your choice unless someone else can be given credit for it.

 

[Scott J]

FFF, When you removed your profile from public view, your PM to me disappeared.

I'd like to be able to contact you. I don't even have the link to your website now.

 

[dianetavegia]

Scott, FFF did NOT remove their profile. They had been a member previously and wasn't able to enter their new email so joined by changing the words around and then asked me to correct their email on the OLD account, resend their password and delete the new account. Try Faith, Fact & Feeling.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/profile/5409.html

 

[rc]

Wes,
You are way over you head on the will, when are you ever going to humble yourself. The very definition of the FREE WILL is to act upon the minds strongest motive, inclination at the moment. The mind of man "spawns" thought for which you base your "decisions" on. Your mind is only and continuously EVIL. Thus your decisions will always be evil in the sense you are starting with an evil base of thought coming from your mind.

Please read "The Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards... It is the unparalleled authority on the subject.

 

[Wes Outwest]

The mind of man "spawns" thought for which you base your "decisions" on. Your mind is only and continuously EVIL. Thus your decisions will always be evil in the sense you are starting with an evil base of thought coming from your mind.

If mine, then yours too! The two of us are not different in any sense of the word! Therefore what you lay on me, applies equally to you!

 

[rc]

I meant "you" generally Wes. Of course this applies to everybody... THAT'S the point.

Evil is the base of our foundation of thought. We decide EVERYTHING, but will always be inclined to evil, because that's all we KNOW.

You (mankind) can NEVER choose the good, because we are inclined to choose evil.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I simply do not agree with that as an all the time condition of man!

I believe that man is not only tempted by evil, but does, in truth, succumb to evil, but not 24 X 7 X 365.

I believe there is a relatively small percentage of the population that thinks, and acts evil 90% of the time, and a relatively small percentage of the population that thinks and acts righteously 90% of the time. The rest of the population resides in flux somewhere between those two extreme groups. The fact that All have sinned, does not mean that ALL continue in sin ALL the time. It means that not one person has escaped the scourge of sin, but that everyone has sinned at least one sin!

The fact that each has turned to his own way, does not mean that ALL have turned to their own way ALL of the time. We ALL have indeed done things our own way, that is human to do so. But the vast majority of people are "followers" doing it someone elses way. The book "a nation of sheep" describes the condition of man very well, and Yes it is biblical. God appoints the leaders big and small, righteous and corrupt, courageous and cowardice, and he does so at HIS WILL. The general population is not comprised of leaders, but rather followers. That is why television advertizing is so very successful, it is targeted to those who are followers.

You simply do not understand humanity because you are a literalist unable to think for yourself and retain faith in God.

 

[rc]

You simply do not understand humanity because you are a literalist

Thanks Wes...
You are right, I take what God says literally. It keeps me from interjecting any humanistic philosphies like "man being good" into my theology. Let scripture mold your thinking not your thinking mold scripture.

All your works are as filthy rags...
No one does good, no, not one.
The natural man HATES God.

 

[Scott J]

Amen RC

You simply do not understand humanity because you are a literalist unable to think for yourself and retain faith in God.

So we can't think for ourselves since we refuse to let you dictate what we think to us? Another case where your own argument disproves your accusations.

BTW, God through His Word has given us a much greater understanding of humanity than we could ever "think for" ourselves.

Jeremiah 17:5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

I THINK one's thinking for himself shows much more wisdom when he trusts God rather than any man... including himself... to evaluate human goodness.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Knowing man and trusting man are two different things. We have tons of literature that indicates what man does, we have a world of evidence that indicates that much good is done by man, actually much more good than bad!

All one needs do is to look around and see the good that evil man does! Open your eyes and you too can see that the vast majority of even your own blood relatives are good people, though they are people who sin. But they don't sin all the time! Nearly 1/3 of every human's life is spent sinless! Of the other 2/3s the sin ratio is probably no greater than 1/16th of the time for the worst of people. You yourself may sin at least one hour out of the day...probably every day. But you don't sin 24 hours of every day! so how can ones heart be "desparately wicked" when they only sin 1/16th of their time?

100% of people sin! but maybe as much as 1% sin most of the time.

Keep your literal-ness, I'm not impressed by it!