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Featured "The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The silly comments you make on here are trying by times so that is why I do tend to ignore what you say. You hold to what he put forward so it would seem your the one that thinks he wrote the bible or at least the parts that you like. You must be taking lessons from Austin in how to post, that in itself says a lot. You hold to your calvinist philosophy and I will hold the truths of the bible.
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting, after all this time, that you are clueless as to what I believe. Therefore I take it that you are being intentionally obtuse so as to not actually engage with the scripture I have provided.
    Now, please quote what, exactly, I said that causes you to think that a person is saved before they hear God's voice.

    Question: Is a person elected by God before the foundation of the world or is that person not elected until after that person chooses God? What is your theological position?
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    John 1:12-13; But as many as received him,
    to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
    even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood,
    nor of the will of the flesh,
    nor of the will of man,
    but of God.

    John 15:3; Now ye are clean
    through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
    but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
    which liveth and abideth forever.

    John 3:3; 5-8; Jesus answered and said unto him,
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
    Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
    Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
    he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
    and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth,
    and thou hearest the sound thereof,
    but canst not tell whence it cometh,
    and whither it goeth:

    so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Romans 9:16; So then it is not of him that willeth,
    nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    I Cor. 4:15; For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
    yet have ye not many fathers:
    for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

    Eph. 2:10; 4:24; For we are his workmanship,
    created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
    which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    And that ye put on the new man,
    which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    I Thess. 1:5; For our gospel came not unto you in word only,
    but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost,
    and in much assurance;

    as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

    Titus 3:5-6; Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
    but according to his mercy he saved us,
    by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    James 1:18; Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,
    that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

    I Peter 1:23; Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
    but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
    which liveth and abideth forever.

    The foregoing scriptures prove without a shadow of a doubt
    that The Work of REGENERATION
    is wholly a Work of God the Holy Spirit,
    through The WORD
    which Enables the sinner
    to Spiritually REPENT and Hear the Gospel.
     
  5. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    All those verses apply solely to Christs Church that He specifically died for Eph 5:25
     
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Alan you
    Alan you are looking at the bible through your calvinist glasses. It is those that cause you to is understand scripture.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    It is the Spiritual Ability, to be Spiritually "Taught".

    It begins with an understanding of Total Depravity.
     
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Alan what is your understanding of "total depravity"?
     
    #28 Silverhair, Nov 1, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2022
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Usually, when a person is Saved,
    or The Lord is "Working on them", in Convicting them of their sin,
    they know:
    All individuals are breakers of God's Law.

    James 4:12; "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy:
    who art thou that judgest another?"

    2:10; "For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
    and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

    Individuals sin because they are sinners.

    Psalms 58:3; "The wicked are estranged from the womb:
    they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

    51:4-5; "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned,
    and done this evil in thy sight:
    that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,
    and be clear when thou judgest."

    5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
    and in sin did my mother conceive me."

    Adam sinned and all men sinned in Adam.

    Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
    and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
    for that all have sinned:"

    5:18-19; "Therefore as by the offence of one
    judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

    even so by the righteousness of one
    the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
    so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So if I am reading you right you have all men condemned because of Adams sin?

    So if that is true then we also have the possibility of all men being saved by the risen Christ just as Romans 5:19 tells us.

    But that still does not tell me what you think total depravity means to you.
     
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

    "Many", not "all without exception".

    The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

    "David Clarkson, one of the Puritans, pointed out this fact in his sermon on Psalm 51:5:

    "The end of the ministry of the Gospel is to bring sinners unto Christ.

    Their way to this end lies through the sense of their misery without Christ.

    The ingredients of this misery are our sinfulness, original and actual; the wrath of God, whereto sin has exposed us; and our impotency to free ourselves either from sin or wrath.

    That we may therefore promote this great end, we shall endeavour, as the Lord will assist, to lead you in this way, by the sense of misery, to Him who alone can deliver from it.

    Now the original of our misery being the corruption of our nature, or original sin, we thought fit to begin here, and therefore have pitched upon these words as very proper for our purpose:

    "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me
    ."
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    A W Pink was a hyper cal so I really do not care what he said. I am still waiting for me to tell me what you think TD means in your own words.

    Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
    Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

    You are reading into the text what is not there. The contrast in vs 18 " judgment came to all men" not some men " free gift came to all men" not some men. So your idea that of "not all without exception" disagrees with the text. This does not mean that all will be saved but all have the possibility of being saved.
     
  13. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @Silverhair. At a practical real life level, if God were to let men hear the gospel, but leave them totally on their own, as to their response to it, the end result would be that not one would ever come to Christ. This is because our nature is such that we, all of us, have an overwhelming tendency to not be willing to renounce our wisdom or accept the righteousness of another. We love ourselves too much and even though we are rational creatures, we would never quite be able to come to Christ because our nature always would finally overrule the gospel message. That is total depravity in the area we are talking about here - the supposed "ability" of natural man to come to Christ.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Dave then you are denying the text of the bible. What purpose do you think the conviction of the Holy Spirit is for? How about God saying that man can know Him through creation. And why preach the gospel if no one could hear it and believe it unto salvation. You are making the term Total Depravity into Total Inability. That is a calvinist construct and it is not biblical.
    God holds man responsible for the choices they make but according to you they can not make a choice to be saved so you have made God to be disingenuous when He treats man as if he actually could make that choice all the while knowing that they could not.
     
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Conviction of The Holy Spirit is a part of The EFFECTUAL CALL.

    Like how, "The Word of The Lord Came to Abraham".

    Genesis 15:4; "And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
    This shall not be thine heir;

    but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

    Man can only know they are Condemned by God, from Nature.
    Not "Saving Knowledge."

    The ONLY WAY they can hear is,
    "having been Predestinanted, them He CALLED", by The Effectual Calling.

    Left to themselves, man can ONLY SIN,
    by their choice that they LOVE SIN, in Adam and Adam in them.

    Left to themselves, man can ONLY SIN,
    by their choice that they LOVE SIN, in Adam and Adam in them.

    God HAS NOT LOST HIS AUTHORITY
    and DOES COMMAND OBEDIENCE

    without Giving the Guity Sinner the ABILITY to KEEP HIS COMMANDS.

    The Whole Decalog, all the time, from conception, for instance.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    None, NOT ONE had or ever would have a possibility to be Saved.

    God Chose many, however.

    The rest were left, to be more blinded than they were to start with.

    "The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded", #Ro 11:7
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    A.W. Pink was not a hyper-Calvinist. He actually resigned from the pastorate of two churches when they objected to him preaching the Gospel freely (mentioned in his biography by Iain Murray).
     
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  18. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I respect your position on this. Maybe you are right. I was just explaining how total depravity affects our response to the gospel. I do believe that we choose. I believe that our choice is real and based on our will and there are plenty of verses showing this. But there are plenty of verses showing that more is needed than just moral persuasion in this. I believe there is actual spiritual work done on us in order for us to ever truly believe. And at this point in my life I'm beginning to understand how much the Holy Spirit is keeping all of us once we are saved.
     
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    The thing about A.W. Pink is that he is too hard for most modern Calvinists and most winsome Baptists. If you read his writings on saving faith he so limits it and ties it to obedience that he loses most modern Calvinists who would rather discuss the metaphysical issues of sovereignty and future events. Pink had a heavy emphasis on saving faith as involving the heart and will and a huge emphasis on warning us not to be deceived by a false faith which will give us a false security until we wake up in Hell. He is worth reading.
     
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  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    So God has predestined those to hell that He has not effectually called. Alan you can not hold to one view without accepting the other. But I am sure you will disagree.
     
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