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The Elephant in the Room.

Discussion in 'Other Discussions' started by Jacob59, Feb 23, 2021 at 1:53 AM.

  1. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Since this will be new information, it is kept brief. This is the Elephant in the Church today

    2 Tim. 3:16 uses theopneustos, translated "inspiration" or "God breathed," to describe Scripture. Theopneustos is derived from pneo, "to breathe hard, to blow."

    The other place "inspiration" appears in Scripture is Job 32:8, "There is a spirit in man: the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." The word used is nshamah, "a puff of wind, vital breath, spirit," equivalent to theopneustos.

    When God created the Earth, the Text uses awmar, "to say, certify, command, declare, demand." When God spoke to Moses etal. The Text uses dabar, "to speak, declare, command, pronounce, appoint." When Jesus spoke to people the Text uses lego, "to speak, relate, say." Hebrews 12:25 uses the Text to state God has lalo, "spoken, uttered words."

    By comparing these definitions of words, it is clear that Paul's theopneustos/"God breathed" in 2 Tim. 3:16 is not the same as the uttered speech of God in the Old Testament. The Torah and Prophets were indeed overtly self identified as the spoken Word of God. But, the "Scripture" identified by Paul cannot be the spoken Word of God because it is only "breathed." Breathing is not "speaking."

    Before you get upset, let me state Paul most likely did not have at hand the Gospels or Luke's material, all which had the Words of Jesus directly from The Father, and cited from the Torah and Prophets. Jesus did speak the uttered Word of God. John's Revelation is the self identified, uttered Word of God.

    Therefore, God did not literally speak His Word through the Apostles, Luke, and Paul other than when they quoted Jesus. Rather, God "breathed" His spirit of discernment and life upon the NT writers, just as stated by Job. Hence, Apostle Peter calls the writings of Paul "wisdom," and not specifically The Word of God. Paul's wisdom is instructive for discerment and doctrine spoken today, but are not Commands of God.
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Paul, or any of the other NT writers, did not need any of the Writings of the other NT writers. What they did have, is the Holy Spirit, who spoke through them, and dictated His Words to them to write down.

    I don't really follow what you are trying to show?
     
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  3. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    By using the word "theopneustos," Paul correctly distinguished between wisdom of Men from the spoken Word of God.

    Please understand God has indeed Divinely preseved and disseminated The Bible for us. It is crucial for the Gospel and the Church. We just should not assume all of Paul's teachings are literally the Word of God for every Christian to literally obey. Just as the Mosaic Law, even as The Word of God, is not for Gentiles to obey.

    For instance, in 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are Paul's instructions about Women keeping silent in church. Is that God's Command for us today?

    Just answer without getting upset.
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    He's saying Inspiration doesn't mean dictation, which is true. But he's also implying that the doctrines of the Apostles do not have the force of a command, which is false.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    the adjective "θεόπνευστος" used in 2 Tim. 3:16, and the participle "φερομενοι" in 2 Peter 1:21, are in the "passive voice". The Reformed theologian, John Trapp, explains this as the Greek says, "As they were moved] φερομενοι. Forcibly moved, acted, carried out of themselves to say and do what God would have them"

    This form of "dictation" is seen in the giving of the Ten Commandments, Exodus 20:1, "And God spake all these words, saying...". And Balaam, Numbers 22:38, "And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.". And the Prophet Jeremiah, 1:7, 9"But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak...Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth."

    Without "dictation", it is not The Word of God, but the Word of God, and the word of man!
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Really? and who chooses what to "obey" and what not to? And Paul's words in 1 Timothy 2, have not changed, even though our society has! Just because people today don't like some of the things that the Bible Teaches, does not mean that we can change their meanings, or remove them from the Bible.
     
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  7. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    As Paul "commanded," Should women in the Church remain silent? Yes? No? Just answer without waffling around. Step up with Godly Substance.
     
  8. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Are you trying to say you do obey all of Jesus' Commands? Just answer. Or, do you choose?
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is very clear that women cannot be Pastors/Teachers. They can teach kids and women, but not where men are present. If you cannot accept this, then take it up with the Lord!
     
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  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    read what YOU wrote!

    We just should not assume all of Paul's teachings are literally the Word of God for every Christian to literally obey

    Firstly, ALL the Holy Bible IS "literally the Word of God". Secondly, are you suggesting that there are parts of the Holy Bible, that we can "disobey"?
     
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  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    It appears from your arguments, that you are trying to suggest, that when the Bible says that women should not preach/teach in any Church, where men are present, that this language used by Paul, is not to be taken "literally"! It does not work this way. 1 Timothy 2:12-13 is very clear:

    "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

    You cannot fight against the Word of God, nor try to twist its meaning to suit your thinking. God will not change His Word for anyone!
     
  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Are you denying Paul’s writings are the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God?

    peace to you
     
  13. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Did I indicate I do not accept this? No. Imaginary thoughts are not Godly.
     
  14. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Stop talking about me. Making personal comments does not address any part of the issue here.

    Inspiration is not the spoken Word of God.

    Intelligence and integrity to you.
     
  15. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    What makes you think I am fighting against the Word of God? Your lazy reading comprehension? Read what I wrote, not what your personality dictates.

    Learn to discuss this material without being white knuckled, and getting personal. Grow up in The Lord.
     
  16. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    Do you "obey" all of what Paul wrote? Yes? No? Afraid to say?
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. Hebrews 1:1
    Much of what God had to tell us was revealed through the history of His governance of Israel.

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
    To contrast the Old and New Testaments, Paul cited the narrative of Sarah and Hagar. Very little of what is in either Testament can be called dictation.

    However, when Paul used Jacob59's favorite word for 'inspiration' he was speaking of the OT. So if one is going to say that 'inspired scripture' doesn't bear the same force of a commandment, he isn't coming from any exposition of the Scriptures themselve.

    Jacob59 brought a straw elephant into the room.
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I asked a simple question. I wasn’t talking “about you”. I made no “personal comments” about you. I’m trying to understand you.

    You didn’t answer my question, so I’ll try again.

    Are you saying that Paul’s writings are not Holy Spirit inspired Word of God?

    Peace to you
     
  19. Jacob59

    Jacob59 Member

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    All of what God revealed through the history of His governance of Israel is for the Redeemed today to know being preordained and "chosen," as was Israel, amounts to failure and nonsense.

    Proof lies in the fact that the word "faith" appears only twice in the OT. Deut. 32:20 and Hab. 2:4. Rather than demonstrating in Israel the need for "faith," God showed how blessings through pragmatic obedience was a dead end result. The Law was a failure because of the "frowardness" of human hearts.

    "For they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith." (Moses speaking in Deut. 32:20)

    Later, Jeremiah speaks of rebellious Judah before the Captivity, "They that handle the Law knew me not." (Jer. 2:8)

    "Froward" means: "not easily controlled, stubbornly willful, contrary, adverse."

    The opposite is "a broken and contrite heart." (Psalm 52:17, Isaiah 66:2)

    These are froward people:

    1.) Calvinists with their TULIP Doctrines.
    2.) Mouthy white knuckled Bible pounders.
    3.) Demanding and unsubmissive Women.
    4.) Heathen pursuing self interests.
    5.) Those who seek wealth and prosperity.
    6.) Those with weak listening skills and thereby run their mouths as a first response. (See Proverbs)
    7.) Those who strut around with their macho personalities and manly hobbies.
    8.) Babbling and loud preachers full of rhetoric manipulations.
    9.) Christians who pray for restoring America to its previous state of World dominance.
    10.) Those who misquote others in order to mouth their personal minor litanies. Lol.

    "Inspiration" is loved by those who worship the endless talk of Paul, yet strangely cannot perform what Paul "commands." They remain oblivious to 1 Cor. 7:12, "Speak I (Paul), not the Lord." So true, as Paul paints his rambling "inspiration" over all of God's Word.
     
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Oh yes. I've heard that one a time or two, and most loudly quoted by those who want to engage in some questionable activity.

    Can we skip the pretense and get to the bottom line?

    What tasty little morsel do you want us to approve of in opposition to the 'advice' of the apostles?
     
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