Bartholomew
New Member
Great Matt,
I knew (?) you'd come round...
I knew (?) you'd come round...
-
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The EU
- Thread starter Matt Black
- Start date
Update: as a result of 'Super Thursday' (the EU and local elections on June 10th), the results of the European elections for the UK are as follows:-
We don't know the results for Scotland or NI, but England and Wales have produced a substantial Eurosceptic vote. With Conservatives on 27.4% (its worst result since 1832) UKIP on 16.8% and Greens on 6.2%, that makes 50.4% Eurosceptic.Labour polled 22.3% (its worst result since 1910) and the Lib Dems were up 2% on 15.1 making a combined pro European vote of 37.4%. The Lib Dems probably picked up protest votes from pro European Tories. But the message is IMO clear. We want no more.
I wouldn't favour total withdrawal from the EU except as a last resort. But Michael Howard's idea that he can retake control of fisheries policy, reform the CAP and end the scerotic inefficiency and corruption in the European machine from within while remaining a full member is a pipedream. If nothing else, both Tony Blair and Michael Howard with have some soul searching to do this morning. That is the result I hoped for in this election. This country must have the European isssue put to the democratic test for the first time in more than a generation.
The Common Fisheries policy in particular is madness and has decimated the UK's fishing industry. 70% of EU water is around Britain and Ireland. Any policy which requires the burning of our fishing fleet while allowing the Spanish and Portugese fleets to further decimate stock is utter madness.
The CAP by which European food is 20-30% more expensive than on the international market is in the interests of no European citizen other than those who are living off the subsedies. The old trade off between a rapidly industrialising Germany who wanted markets in France, and the French peasant farming sector wanting protection against modernisation set in the fifties is an outdated model for a community of 25 nations in which new membrs such as Poland are given inferior rights over agriculture to what France expects.
Also, Neil Kinnock has failed to deal with the corruption in EU finances which costs us all billions. The EU is such a lumbering bureaucratic giant that it is utterly sclerotic. The British, as an island race, have always been aloof from Europe. Even in our imperialist expansionist phase, we never sought to expand within Europe apart from strategic places such as Gibraltar, Malta and Cyprus, but plied our trade on the high seas. This led to our admission to Europe on highly unfavourable terms.
My personal opinion is that the Uk should renegociate its relationship with Europe. We should trade freely, as do Switzerland and Norway. We should cooperate on matters of security, criminal intelligence etc. But we should not sign up to any constitution. We most certainly should never abandon our ancient rights to presumption of innocence and trial by jury to any European Prosecutor. The likes of Valery Giscard D'Estaing and Romano Prodi would make a USE with common laws and tax policies. It is an idea I utterly oppose for this country.
Both the US and Canada have said that they would look favourably on any British application for membership of NAFTA. As the originators of the concept of free trade, it would be fitting for the Uk to negociate free trade agreements with both the EU and NAFTA. We are barred from approaching NAFTA by our EU commitments. The time has come to seek our freedom from the crushing straightjacket of EU regulation.
Yours in Christ
Matt
We don't know the results for Scotland or NI, but England and Wales have produced a substantial Eurosceptic vote. With Conservatives on 27.4% (its worst result since 1832) UKIP on 16.8% and Greens on 6.2%, that makes 50.4% Eurosceptic.Labour polled 22.3% (its worst result since 1910) and the Lib Dems were up 2% on 15.1 making a combined pro European vote of 37.4%. The Lib Dems probably picked up protest votes from pro European Tories. But the message is IMO clear. We want no more.
I wouldn't favour total withdrawal from the EU except as a last resort. But Michael Howard's idea that he can retake control of fisheries policy, reform the CAP and end the scerotic inefficiency and corruption in the European machine from within while remaining a full member is a pipedream. If nothing else, both Tony Blair and Michael Howard with have some soul searching to do this morning. That is the result I hoped for in this election. This country must have the European isssue put to the democratic test for the first time in more than a generation.
The Common Fisheries policy in particular is madness and has decimated the UK's fishing industry. 70% of EU water is around Britain and Ireland. Any policy which requires the burning of our fishing fleet while allowing the Spanish and Portugese fleets to further decimate stock is utter madness.
The CAP by which European food is 20-30% more expensive than on the international market is in the interests of no European citizen other than those who are living off the subsedies. The old trade off between a rapidly industrialising Germany who wanted markets in France, and the French peasant farming sector wanting protection against modernisation set in the fifties is an outdated model for a community of 25 nations in which new membrs such as Poland are given inferior rights over agriculture to what France expects.
Also, Neil Kinnock has failed to deal with the corruption in EU finances which costs us all billions. The EU is such a lumbering bureaucratic giant that it is utterly sclerotic. The British, as an island race, have always been aloof from Europe. Even in our imperialist expansionist phase, we never sought to expand within Europe apart from strategic places such as Gibraltar, Malta and Cyprus, but plied our trade on the high seas. This led to our admission to Europe on highly unfavourable terms.
My personal opinion is that the Uk should renegociate its relationship with Europe. We should trade freely, as do Switzerland and Norway. We should cooperate on matters of security, criminal intelligence etc. But we should not sign up to any constitution. We most certainly should never abandon our ancient rights to presumption of innocence and trial by jury to any European Prosecutor. The likes of Valery Giscard D'Estaing and Romano Prodi would make a USE with common laws and tax policies. It is an idea I utterly oppose for this country.
Both the US and Canada have said that they would look favourably on any British application for membership of NAFTA. As the originators of the concept of free trade, it would be fitting for the Uk to negociate free trade agreements with both the EU and NAFTA. We are barred from approaching NAFTA by our EU commitments. The time has come to seek our freedom from the crushing straightjacket of EU regulation.
Yours in Christ
Matt
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
What a shock result with the UKIP results!
Maybe there is hope with the minor parties in the US?
Maybe there is hope with the minor parties in the US?
Maybe, maybe not. The Euro elections in the UK are done by Proportional Representation,in contrast to the 'First Past the Post'/ 'Winner Takes All'/'Spoils System', which means that a party only need muster around 10% of the vote to win seats. The General Elections in both the US and UK are not PR and therefore do not favour minor parties, which is why most UKIP voters, like me, will be voting Conservative in the General.
And now for that other Euro result...dare I admit it?...France 2 England 1 :-(
Yours in Christ
Matt
And now for that other Euro result...dare I admit it?...France 2 England 1 :-(
Yours in Christ
Matt
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Sorry Matt - but it was a cracker of a match!
Zidane is my favourite footballer, but I was supporting England - I was truly torn.
Zidane is my favourite footballer, but I was supporting England - I was truly torn.
You're absorbing Irish idioms - 'cracker'! Next you'll be adding "to be sure" after every statement!
I couldn't believe that wecould throw the match away in just two minutes in injury time. It really made me want to weep!
Yours in Christ
Matt
I couldn't believe that wecould throw the match away in just two minutes in injury time. It really made me want to weep!
Yours in Christ
Matt
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Sure it was grand Matt 
.
England will grand on the day if they beat Croatia and Switzerland.
.England will grand on the day if they beat Croatia and Switzerland.
That's a pretty tall order, so it is, Roger
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Back to the main topic - I think one quite astute commentator, with a twinkle in his eye, said that the European elections in the UK were a contest between the two main parties to see who could perform the most disastrously. The Labour Party's result was the worst since 1910 and the Tories' the worst since 1832!
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Same over here Matt - Fianna Fail had their worst result since the founding of the State. Sinn Feinn had their biggest gains since the 1920's.
Hmmm...doesn't bode well for Ulster politics either...Paisleys DUP on the one hand who at least have the distinctive of not being ex-terrorists and Sinn Fein on the other...
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Sinn Fein also garnered their first seats in the European Parliament.
"doesn't bode well for Ulster politics either...Paisleys DUP on the one hand who at least have the distinctive of not being ex-terrorists and Sinn Fein on the other..."
''
What truly worries me is that in practice of the 2 Sinn Fein may very well turn out to be the most reasonable party.
''
What truly worries me is that in practice of the 2 Sinn Fein may very well turn out to be the most reasonable party.
As a young person, I heard this preached as if it were a matter of fact.
I personally don't know and fear being dogmatic. The Pharisees thought they had messianic prophecy all figured out... their presuppositions caused them to miss the Messiah completely.
The conjectures made about the revived Roman Empire haven't been disproved by anything that has happened nor proven. Interesting things that were predicted by evangelists in this vein 30+/- years ago are: common currency (and electronic/bio-chip currency), no trade boundaries, central law in Europe that over-rides national sovereignty, progressive abandonment of Israel, etc.
These weren't prophecies, just predictions based on what was known, planned, and dreamed.
In a different vein, the EU may replace the USSR as America's chief rival. We already disagree on trade. There is already significant antagonism against the US within Europe. There are already rifts concerning security and US foreign policy. And it now appears that France, Germany, and Russia were circumventing UN resolutions concerning Iraq... which probably contributed to their opposition to the US/GB invasion.
Of course alot of this could be resolved with the rapture. If you take the born-again Christian vote away from the Republican Party, they cannot win. The liberal Dems share ideology with European democratic socialists... to include their disdain for America that exists today and its stands.
Scott,
Like you, I would tend to be very cautious in identifying the EU with a revived Roman Empire, although it was a reference of its founding fathers (who all were devout Roman Catholics if that matters).
Personally, I am extremly concerned by what the Union is becoming (by the way, I've just heard on the radio here that they've reached an agreement on the future constitution). I would say that the present institutions have at least totalitarian tendencies, without much counter-balance.
Also worrying to me is the growing anti-American and anti-Israeli sentiment and what seems to me to be a divorce between Europe and the States.
I'm not going to make any prognostic, but we should at least be aware this is the world we live in.
Your brother
Thomas
Like you, I would tend to be very cautious in identifying the EU with a revived Roman Empire, although it was a reference of its founding fathers (who all were devout Roman Catholics if that matters).
Personally, I am extremly concerned by what the Union is becoming (by the way, I've just heard on the radio here that they've reached an agreement on the future constitution). I would say that the present institutions have at least totalitarian tendencies, without much counter-balance.
Also worrying to me is the growing anti-American and anti-Israeli sentiment and what seems to me to be a divorce between Europe and the States.
I'm not going to make any prognostic, but we should at least be aware this is the world we live in.
Your brother
Thomas
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't worry too much about the "constitution." All it did was to put a bunch of old treaties and agreements into one document.
A better title would have been a "consolidation treaty."
A better title would have been a "consolidation treaty."
I don't think the future Constitution is only a collection of old documents put in one...It really adds a new dimension, which is normal now that we have to deal with 25 countries (25!!!THAT is the problem).The fact the President would have more powers and that there would be a European Foreign Affairs minister are new developments.
Anyway, this constitution has to be approved, and if France organizes a referendum (which it won't: Chirac doesn't want it)I shall vote NO (especially if we have to let Turkey join the EU).
Anyway, this constitution has to be approved, and if France organizes a referendum (which it won't: Chirac doesn't want it)I shall vote NO (especially if we have to let Turkey join the EU).
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Good point in the presidential power and foreign minister, but this document is still not a real governing constitution.
It does not really give Brussels any new powers.
It does not really give Brussels any new powers.
I would take issue with that. Blair returned trumpeting that he'd had a Big Fight with Chirac and Schroeder and defended our 'Red Lines' but what we have in reality is the following:-
1. The EU is now a single legal personality rather than a mere collection of sovereign states bound together by treaty; for the first time, we have a country called 'Europe'
2. The consitution gives the EU a single jurisdiction, a single criminal code and provides in art 1.5 express supremacy of EU laws over national laws.
3. Despite Blair arguing for 'Red Lines', one of these, the creation of an EU Public Prosecutor, has been circumvented by the constitution creating a body of EU law and 'prosecuting authority', with scope to create a European polic force.
4. A second 'Red Line', the non-applicability of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, has been overruled, not by the politicians meeting at Brussels, but by the European Court of Justice which, like the computer that becomes self-aware in Terminator 3, has assumed a life and power all of its own and made it clear that, no matter what the politicians decide, the Charter WILL apply in the domestic law of member states.
5. Another Red Line was foreign and defence policy. Intact? Er...no: "Member states shall support the common foreign and security policy actively and effectively."
6. So that just leaves only one of Tony's formidable Red Lines intact:tax. Well, kinda sorta. The EU has common rules on vat (that's sales tax to you guys on the western end of the Atlantic), and on external tariffs, permissible budget deficits. So that's ok then...
Basically the EU can now do what the heck it likes, and there's stuff all we can do about it. Thanks, Tony, even worse than the not-Nice Treaty
Yours in Christ
Matt
1. The EU is now a single legal personality rather than a mere collection of sovereign states bound together by treaty; for the first time, we have a country called 'Europe'
2. The consitution gives the EU a single jurisdiction, a single criminal code and provides in art 1.5 express supremacy of EU laws over national laws.
3. Despite Blair arguing for 'Red Lines', one of these, the creation of an EU Public Prosecutor, has been circumvented by the constitution creating a body of EU law and 'prosecuting authority', with scope to create a European polic force.
4. A second 'Red Line', the non-applicability of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, has been overruled, not by the politicians meeting at Brussels, but by the European Court of Justice which, like the computer that becomes self-aware in Terminator 3, has assumed a life and power all of its own and made it clear that, no matter what the politicians decide, the Charter WILL apply in the domestic law of member states.
5. Another Red Line was foreign and defence policy. Intact? Er...no: "Member states shall support the common foreign and security policy actively and effectively."
6. So that just leaves only one of Tony's formidable Red Lines intact:tax. Well, kinda sorta. The EU has common rules on vat (that's sales tax to you guys on the western end of the Atlantic), and on external tariffs, permissible budget deficits. So that's ok then...
Basically the EU can now do what the heck it likes, and there's stuff all we can do about it. Thanks, Tony, even worse than the not-Nice Treaty
Yours in Christ
Matt