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Featured The false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, May 20, 2020.

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  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    The Bible does not teach Mary's Immaculate Conception, this is a false doctrine. We see them pushing the need to have people follow the Nicene Creed which tells us that Jesus Christ was fully man, and fully God. The Bible does a very well job of teaching the same, but they themselves reject this truth through the false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

    The false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception separates Christ from the very humanity in need of His salvation, by making Him completely different than those He would save by entering into their experience, and conquering where they were helpless to do so. Thus fulfilling the real purpose of Roman Catholicism, the separation of humanity from their only hope, Jesus Christ, through the belief of false doctrines which destroy a real and meaningful relationship with Christ. Lets look at it with some notes from my buddy Amo:

    Immaculate Conception
    THE DOCTRINE


    In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
    "The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
    ". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
    ". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
    ". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
    Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
    The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII
    Copyright © 1910

    According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was seperated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and is a false doctrine. Lets look at the verses they use to try to justify it:

    Luke 1:28-35 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
    29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
    30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.

    Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
    18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



    Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
    2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
    8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the human race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which separates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.

    Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.
     
  2. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now we also see that they follow Mary as the "Queen of Heaven". Lets start by looking at the Cathechism and we see a person who died and according to the church has been elevated to assume the prerogatives of Christ:

    "Daily, daily sing to Mary Sing, my soul, her praises due;

    All her feasts, her actions worship, With the heart's devotion true.

    She is mighty to deliver; Call her, trust her lovingly;

    When the tempest rages round thee, She will calm the troubled sea.

    Gifts of heaven she has given, Noble Lady, to our race;

    She the Queen who decks her subject, With the light of God's own grace." (Baltimore Catechism No.1, 63)

    Notice the references to the Queen of Heaven.

    Here is RCC belief about Mary...from the Catholic Catechism

    "PART ONE
    THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
    SECTION TWO
    THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
    CHAPTER THREE
    I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
    ARTICLE 9
    "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
    Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church
    963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501
    I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
    Wholly united with her Son . . .
    964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

    Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503 965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
    . . . also in her Assumption
    966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

    In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507 . . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
    967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.
    968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
    969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510
    970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512
    II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
    971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
    III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
    972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

    In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517 IN BRIEF
    973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
    974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
    975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15)."............

    So is any of this in scripture, what does the Bible tell us about Mary?

    We know Mary was a good woman and highly favored among women, but where does it say she is given the power or title to be co-mediatrix and co-redemtrix since Christ is the only way to the Father and He alone is our Redeemer and Mediator.

    So if Mary is dead and buried in her grave, who is this 'Queen of Heaven' they make as what can only be called a 'goddess'......
     
  3. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Now they may deny it or some people may question whether Catholics really call her the Queen of Heaven, but read and you decide: "Among all the women who have ever lived, the mother of Jesus Christ is the most celebrated, the most venerated... Among Roman Catholics, the Madonna is recognized not only as the Mother of God, but also, according to modern Popes, as the Queen of the Universe, Queen of Heaven, Seat of Wisdom, and even the Spouse of the Holy Spirit." (Time Magazine, "Handmaid or Feminist?", December 30, 1991, p. 62-66). Now lets look at what scripture says:

    Jeremiah 7:18
    The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

    Here God is telling Israel why He is about to destroy them as a nation for the abomination they are doing.. Notice that God is very angry that these people are preparing to worship the Queen of Heaven. He is saying that this worship of the Queen of Heaven is "provoking" Him to anger.

    Now lets look further:

    Jeremiah 44:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
    16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.
    17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
    18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
    19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

    Here, we see that the people are defiantly refusing to obey God, and are continuing to worship this Queen of Heaven. And finally:

    Jeremiah 44:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
    25 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows

    We see that God has seen that the people are going to worship this Queen of Heaven no matter what He says. Therefore, God tells them to go ahead with their rebellion, because He is going to allow them to be destroyed. So who is this 'Queen of Heaven' which the Israelites were worshipping, that provoked God to such anger. We see it is not of God but of another origin....
     
  4. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Wisdom 1: 4 ---> "For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sin."


    1 Cor 1:24, 30 ---> Who does Scripture call wisdom?

    Luke 1:31 ---> In whose body did wisdom dwell?


    If Christ is the Wisdom of God and if Mary is the person in whose body he dwelt, then there is the Immaculate Conception.
     
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Talk about begging the question
     
  6. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    Feel free to take a stab at the questions...
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sigh even if we agree on the answers to your irrelevant questions and even if your questions were relevant at all your conclusion is still begging the question.
     
  8. Drifter

    Drifter New Member

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    The first man was created unfallen and yet was quite obviously a human being. Unless I have misunderstood, the logic of your post suggests that Adam was not fully man.:confused: This is a big non-starter from the beginning.
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Mary delighted in God her Savior, so was a fallen sinner like all save for Jesus!
     
  10. MarysSon

    MarysSon Member

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    Mary WAS saved. She was saved BEFORE she was born.

    Now - I will show you from SCRIPTURE that not only WAS Mary sinless – she HAD to be sinless.
    I don’t expect @Hobie to respond – he never does after being proven wrong . . .

    First of all - the Greek word used in the Angel's greeting of Mary is "Kecharitomene" (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with a permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”
    Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name.
    The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, Hail, Kecharitomene.”

    Next – we must remember that NT Fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect than their OT Types. This is without exception. That being said – let’s look at an OT Type of Mary.

    Whereas the symbols of God’s word were contained in the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament, Mary actually carried God himself - the Word - in her womb in the New Testament. And, whereas the Old Testament Ark had to be made of pure materials and blessed and undefiled, how much MORE pure and undefiled would the vessel that carried God have to be?

    OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
    NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

    OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
    NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

    OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
    NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

    OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
    NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

    OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
    NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

    OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
    NT - The On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

    Finally - in the Book of Revelation, we see the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19:
    Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ARK OF HIS COVENANT could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

    The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1):
    A great sign appeared in the sky, A WOMAN clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

    Verse 2 says:
    SHE WAS WITH CHILD and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

    We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read:
    She gave birth to a son, a MALE CHILD, DESTINIED TO RULE ALL NATIONS WITH AN IRON ROD.

    There is simply NO getting around the fact that the “Woman” here in Revelation 12, which is ALSO the “Ark” is Mary.
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The woman in Revelation is nation of Israel!
     
  12. MarysSon

    MarysSon Member

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    Boy, that's some refutation - NOT.

    I gave you a comprehensive study on Mary and the Ark - and ALL you can say is, "The Woman is Israel"??
    REALLY??
    That's the best you can do??

    Try reading my entire post and responding with a comprehensive SCRIPTURAL refutation.
    If you can't - just say so and let somebody else give it a try . . .
     
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    mary was born a sinner
     
  14. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

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    To EVERY Jew, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is Savior.


    Isaiah 43:11 ---> "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour."


    Isaiah 45:21 ---> "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me."


    Hosea 13:4 ---> "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me."


    2 Samuel 22:3 ---> "The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my Saviour; thou savest me from violence."
     
  15. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Wow, three in a row this time. So where have you been?

    All hail the prophetess Ellen White!
     
  16. MarysSon

    MarysSon Member

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    Cool - show me the verse that states this in Scripture.
    I gave you the verses that shows she wasn't stained with sin.
     
  17. MarysSon

    MarysSon Member

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    CRICKETS . . .
     
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL except for Jesus were affected by the Fall, as all physical born save for HIm in the Fall!
     
  19. MarysSon

    MarysSon Member

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    Chapter and Verse, please . . .
     
  20. Jfar

    Jfar New Member

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    Non Baptist Christian
    You have every right to believe in the Immaculate Conception. However, if you want Protestants to accept that belief you’re going to have to do one of two things: 1) Convince us that Catholic tradition is authoritative in these matters. Or 2) Show us an explicit scripture reference stating that she was cleansed from the stain of original sin at conception instead of at birth or at the Annunciation, if at all. Asking for a verse that specifically denies the Immaculate Conception happened is asking us to prove a negative and is unlikely to convince anyone of anything. I personally can’t rule out the possibility that the IC is true, but I also don’t see myself under any obligation to believe it.
     
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