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The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by robycop3, Feb 12, 2018.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At the risk of having this doctrinal thread topic actually look - at the Bible again...


    ========================================================

    Good thread on doctrine.


    Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

    So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

    Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

    Ezek 28
    “You had the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your coveri
    ng:
    The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
    The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
    The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
    And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
    Was in you.
    On the day that you were created
    They were prepared.
    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
    And I placed you there.
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 “You were blameless in your ways
    From the day you were created

    Until unrighteousness was found in you.
    16 “By the abundance of your trade
    You were internally filled with violence,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I have cast you as profane
    From the mountain of God.
    And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

    From the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
    I cast you to the ground;
    I put you before kings,
    That they may see you.
    18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
    In the unrighteousness of your trade
    You profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    Rev 20
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

    Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When reason vacates in regard to a given subject, the only weapons of argument left are in the hands of emotion. The simplest emotional weapons to wield are name-calling ,disparaging remarks, vitriol and acrimony for those deemed adversaries. All such ad hominem tactics provide nothing of persuasive substance, except to those whose reason has also been vacated on that same subject.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, the one true Church of Christ existed right at time of Christ, so was not the church of Rome...
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Eternal Life and Eternal death have the same length of time assigned to them by Jesus Himself, as forever!
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    You leave us that option, as you are blinded to the scripture truths regarding the heresy of EW, and the false Gospel the Sda proports to teach as being from God!
     
  6. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    You have confused "eternal death" with "torment". The two are not synonymous. The torment [limited] happens before the [eternal] death takes place, while they yet live to suffer every man according as his works shall be. The death [2nd] is the ultimate end, from which there is no resurrection, nor return.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The second death is NOT ever said to be ceasing of all life, but to be in a state forever alive and yet apart from God!
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    So the 'old man of sin' was never really all dead, but somewhat alive still also? You do realize, just like I said, in so teaching, you immortalize sin, and have no victory ever over it, since it cannot ever truly die.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What can't ever die?
     
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Let's look at this some more, and look at the word "carcases" as found in Isaiah 66:24 KJB, and see it in immediate context, and as used throughout:

    Isaiah 66:6 KJB - A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

    Isaiah 66:15 KJB - For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

    Isaiah 66:16 KJB - For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

    Isaiah 66:17 KJB - They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.​

    His "chariots" are all the hosts of angels, for they are flames of fire [see 2 Kings 2:11, 6:17, 7:6, 13:14; Psalms 68:17, 104:4; Joel 2:3,5; Hebrews 1:7 KJB], and in such glory, the very heavens and earth itself will melt at the presence of Jesus Christ, in His glory, His Father's glory and the glory of all the Holy Angels [2nd Advent, before/at the beginning of 1,000 years], and in the 3rd Advent [after/at the end of 1,000 years], all the gloriously transfigured righteous also are present.

    This is like unto what Jeremiah said:

    Jeremiah 16:4 KJB - They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.​

    The word Hebrew word [H6297] used in Isaiah is translated thus:

    פּגר
    peger

    Total KJB Occurrences: 28

    carcases, 13

    bodies, 6

    dead, 6

    corpses, 2

    carcase, 1


    Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcase/s", just in Isaiah, it is a dead person [lifeless person, a dead body, see Ezekiel 6:5; Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

    Isaiah 5:25 KJB - Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

    Isaiah 14:19 KJB - But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    Isaiah 34:3 KJB - Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

    Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

    Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcases", throughout the scripture [KJB], it is a dead person [lifeless person, a dead body, see Ezekiel 6:5, Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

    Genesis 15:11 KJB - And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

    Leviticus 11:11 KJB - They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

    Leviticus 11:26 KJB - The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.

    Leviticus 26:30 KJB - And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

    Numbers 14:29 KJB - Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

    Numbers 14:32 KJB - But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

    Numbers 14:33 KJB - And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

    1 Samuel 17:46 KJB - This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

    Jeremiah 7:33 KJB - And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

    Jeremiah 9:22 KJB - Speak, Thus saith the LORD, Even the carcases of men shall fall as dung upon the open field, and as the handful after the harvestman, and none shall gather them.

    Jeremiah 16:4 KJB - They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

    Jeremiah 16:18 KJB - And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

    Jeremiah 19:7 KJB - And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

    Ezekiel 6:5 KJB - And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.

    Ezekiel 43:7 KJB - And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

    Ezekiel 43:9 KJB - Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

    Nahum 3:3 KJB - The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses:

    Hebrews 3:17 KJB - But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    ... to be continued ...
     
    #50 One Baptism, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ... continued ...

    Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcase", throughout the scripture [KJB], it is a dead person [lifeless person, see Ezekiel 6:5, Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

    Leviticus 5:2 KJB - Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

    Leviticus 11:8 KJB - Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

    Leviticus 11:24 KJB - And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.

    Leviticus 11:25 KJB - And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.

    Leviticus 11:27 KJB - And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.

    Leviticus 11:28 KJB - And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.

    Leviticus 11:35 KJB - And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.

    Leviticus 11:36 KJB - Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.

    Leviticus 11:37 KJB - And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.

    Leviticus 11:38 KJB - But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.

    Leviticus 11:39 KJB - And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.

    Leviticus 11:40 KJB - And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.

    Deuteronomy 14:8 KJB - And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

    Deuteronomy 28:26 KJB - And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

    Joshua 8:29 KJB - And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remaineth unto this day.

    Judges 14:8 KJB - And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.

    Judges 14:9 KJB - And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.

    1 Kings 13:22 KJB - But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

    1 Kings 13:24 KJB - And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

    1 Kings 13:25 KJB - And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

    1 Kings 13:28 KJB - And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.

    1 Kings 13:29 KJB - And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

    1 Kings 13:30 KJB - And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!

    2 Kings 9:37 KJB - And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.

    Isaiah 14:19 KJB - But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    Matthew 24:28 KJB - For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.​

    In Isaiah 66, and in Mark 9 [quoting Isaiah 66], we see that the wicked are slain, dead upon the ground, and to be burned up in the fire, consumed away as "the fat of lambs", for it is through the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB], that we understand all the teachings of God, including what happens to sin, sinners/wicked, they are to be filled with the terror of the LORD in His Holiness, to be slaughtered, cut into pieces, and burned up into smoke and ashes, that all such may have their end [2nd death], for sin, when it is "finished", bringeth forth "death", which is the wages of sin:

    Psalms 37:20 KJB - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Psalms 73:17 KJB - Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

    Psalms 73:18 KJB - Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

    Psalms 73:19 KJB - How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.​
     
    #51 One Baptism, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  12. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Without desiring to be insulting, may I ask, What is the primary language that you speak, read and write in? I ask, since it seems that there is a language barrier, in regards the words, definitions and sentence structure of my American English reply to yourself.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    How will there be real justice if the Hitler and the little old Grandma both just burn away?
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    One suffers longer according as their works [which is Justice]. Hence the difference between torment [limited] and final end, 2nd death [permanent, eternal].

    Matthew 8:29 KJB - And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?​

    Are wicked angels suffering now in fire, or later, if now, how do you explain this verse, and if later when according to your belief and for how long?

    I read, in scripture [KJB], that "suffering"/torment has a limit, even for such wickedness that reached unto Heaven:

    Jude 1:7 KJB - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    The "vengeance of eternal fire" , is the same as saying the "vengeance of God [who is the eternal fire]".
    Christ Jesus also "suffered" for sin, having took our sins [all sin of man-kind] upon himself, and was it forever, no, but "once" [having a limited time]?

    1 Peter 3:18 KJB - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Hebrews 13:12 KJB - Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    Hebrews 9:25 KJB - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    Hebrews 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Acts 17:3 KJB - Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

    Luke 24:26 KJB - Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    Acts 17:3 KJB, teaches that suffering [for sin] exists only while alive, and the suffering was to continue unto the death, but once truly dead, there is no more suffering, and thus suffering has a limit, has an end, and thus the former things are passed away [gone, no more, not ever again, etc].
     
  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The same words are found not just in the archaic, outdated KJV (NOT "KJB"!) but in earlier versions, as well as in modern ones. I believe all those translators over all those years know/knew a little more about the actual meanings of many Koine Greek words/phrases than we "ordinary" English-users do.

    Again, "annihilationism" is just an escape doctrine for those who reject Jesus.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I posted Scriptures that prove differently. Scripture does not contradict itself. Why would God keep a lake of fire forever if it serves no purpose once the wicked would be destroyed?

    All your guesswork about the meaning of fire that's not quenched and worms that don't die is useless in face of the Scriptures that state hell & the punishment of the wicked is eternal. I BELIEVE GOD'S WORD, NOT SOME CULT'S PRIVATE INTERPS OF IT!
     
  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    That is actually a misunderstanding of how the Bible itself relates to us, since it is God who defines His own words, in His own book, not us, for it is God who giveth the interpretation. And how could it be otherwise?

    For you on the other [non OP related, thus non-sequitur] subject, have a look see, as you will, and you are free to ignore and not respond to it/them as you have many other questions I have asked you in this thread:





    KJV Bible Vindicated

    My last word on this non-sequitur here [I actually have Laurence M Vance's, "Archaic Words and the Authorized Version" if you are going to press this, and I will quote directly from it and am ready to do so, in another thread.]
     
    #58 One Baptism, Feb 15, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  19. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    What passage or verse says that the lake of fire is itself, as you say, "forever" [eternal]?
     
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Not trying to derail this thread, which I started, Sir, but I'll gladly show you why the KJVO myth is false, in the "Bible translations" sub-forum. I can answer and counter any pro-KJVO assertions.

    MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH...

    Your KJV has those same words, "for ever and ever" in it as do older & newer translations. No misunderstanding there. Just as heaven & the new earth are eternal for the saints, hell is eternal for the wicked, in God's perfect justice.
     
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