The fear of losing your salvation...a false fear or true motivator?

[Skandelon]

Parents say to their children, "If you don't clean your room you are going to get a spanken."

What motivates the child to clean? The threat of a spanken, right?

What if you remove the possiblity of that threat? What if someone outside the family told the child, "Your parents are not going to spank you, they told me they wouldn't ever do that for real, they are just telling you that to make you clean your room." Would the threat carry any weight in motivating the child to behave? No.

I believe this is what has happened in evangelical churches today. Theologians have removed the threat of scripture by teaching that we can't really lose our salvation. This has made for a church that claims to be Christian but lives like the world. Why not? I have my ticket, and according to my preacher I can't lose it.

Scripture continually presents the idea that IF we continue in the faith THEN we will be saved. And it uses fear as a motivator for us to perserve in that faith. Should our dogma remove that fear rendering its motivation null and void?

If we truly cannot lose our salvation then what is Paul calling Gentile believers to fear in Romans 11:19-24?

 

[Frogman]

If we truly can lose our salvation, then how can it be called 'eternal life'?

If we truly can lose our salvation, then aren't those who do 'perservere' managing to make it to an eternal heaven by the mercy of the devil, or the merit they were more motivated by fear?

could you imagine rejoicing in eternity because while satan was causing me to 'lose' my salvation he didn't get around to harassing you?

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. I John 3.18

read vss. 11-17 to see where our love is made perfect, and why. (Not insinuating you have not read this, just read it in light of what I have said and consider it).

May God richly bless you.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Parents say to their children, "If you don't clean your room you are going to get a spanken."

What motivates the child to clean? The threat of a spanken, right?

What if you remove the possiblity of that threat? What if someone outside the family told the child, "Your parents are not going to spank you, they told me they wouldn't ever do that for real, they are just telling you that to make you clean your room." Would the threat carry any weight in motivating the child to behave? No.

I believe this is what has happened in evangelical churches today. Theologians have removed the threat of scripture by teaching that we can't really lose our salvation. This has made for a church that claims to be Christian but lives like the world. Why not? I have my ticket, and according to my preacher I can't lose it.

Scripture continually presents the idea that IF we continue in the faith THEN we will be saved. And it uses fear as a motivator for us to perserve in that faith. Should our dogma remove that fear rendering its motivation null and void?

If we truly cannot lose our salvation then what is Paul calling Gentile believers to fear in Romans 11:19-24?

My dear friend in Christ, you leave out a very important distinction:

Human parents are not the Holy Sinless Living God!

I do see your parallal with Gen. 3 here but again, any person who diligently studies the ENTIRETY OF SCRIPTURE can only conclude that God was NOT suprised or caught off guard by the fall!

Angered? Yes! Dissapointed? You bet!
He knew this was going to happen before He made the Heaven and the Earth! He ordained it!

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

To add to this, I point the student of Scripture to the ENTIRE BOOK of Job as a Master Class on the Sovereign and Just God! Job was not a "special case", no that could never be; we can ALL while reading Job just replace Job's name with our own and it STILL is 100% Truth! AMEN!

 

[Psalm145 3]

The best motivator for holiness is God's grace. If a so-called Christian thinks grace is a license to continue practicing their sinful lifestyle I wouldn't give a half of a halleluia for their hope of heaven.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

All true Christians who believe that they can lose salvation are living under a law relationship with the Lord, they have fallen from grace into legalistic bondage.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I realize debate on salvation issue is the one of the hottest debate than any kind of the doctrines we face today.

For example - Calvinism vs. Arminianism - it is the one of the most hot debate than any issues. That issue discuss most focus on salvation issue.

Many calvinists make many good points. Many arminianists make many good points. It is endless debate for a long time.

Even with debate between non-osas and osas people. Both non-osas and osas people make many good points with the scriptures.

My question is, are ALL non-osas people go to heaven? No. Are ALL osas people go to hell? No.

I am not osas. I disagree with osas doctrine.

I know late Dr. John R. Rice, he believed in security salvation. Himself not think of being osas. Also, himself is not calvinist or arminianist either. But, his teaching familar with osas so obivously. But, I do believe Dr. John R. Roce is in heaven for sure, no doubt, not because he was osas. Because I notice his fruit shoewd so wonderful, he loved the Lord so much. He faithfully prayed to God every day. He served the Lord faithfully till his death. He witnessed to many people for Christ. I do believe Dr. Rice would receive the reward for his faithful serve to the Lord.

I am not saying that all osas people will go to hell. I am not saying that all non-osas people will go to hell either.

People who believe in security salvation, does not mean that they go to hell because their belief. People who believe in conditional salvation, does not mean that they go to hell.

THe most important basic fundamental thing, both non-osas and osas people believe: Jesus Christ died on the cross for us. That is the fundamental doctrine as both believe.

I am aware that both have differently intepreting scriptures about the Christian life afterward after they believed in Christ, what will be in the result of their life after their death.

But, in fact, I have seen more osas people more likely avoid powerful verses in the Bible than non-osas people do.

For example, I notice many osas teachers avoid Matt. 24:14-30. They do not want to discuss on that. Non-osas teachers can.

Non-osas teachers easily teaching on John chapter 15 about the branch, because they can see what Jesus Christ saying very clearly. I am aware that many osas teachers easily teaching on John chapter 15, BUT, osas teachers intepreting on John 15:6 differently or twist, not what Christ was actually talk about. Non-osas teachers easy understand Christ's warning on John 15:6 speaks about us, not such as "professoring Christians" Christ speaks toward US, not 'professing Christian'.

I am aware of Calvinists saying on John 15:6, they are 'professing Christians', but not what Christ says. Christ clearly warn to US, not anothers.

I know many of calvinists won't discuss on Matt 25:14-30, because Matt 25:14-30 is very clear speak warn to US, not anothers.

I notice many of you seem won't to answer about Romans chapter 11, that Paul give warning to us, that Gentiles should fear of...

Romans chapter 11 clearly speak to us, not just for the Jews only. Romans chapter 11 is same as John chapter 15 so obivously.

In fact, I have been seen many osas teachers easily skip many areas in the Bible, by avoid them, just pick several areas to apply us to prove security salvation.

Remember 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us, we must teach ALL scriptures from Genesis to Revelation.

Bible is given the message for everyone, not just for 'Jews' or 'Israel' or 'professing Christian' either.

I believe the Bible teaches us that we must endure with our faith all the way to the end(our life) then shall be saved - Matt 10:22; and 24:13. Or, if any person do not endure during life, by the time person died, person is not saved.

Same with John 15:6 tells us, if a person do not endure/abide, then person would be removed away mean cut off and cast into fire. Same with Romans chapter 11 warns us, that we(Gentiles)fear, what God has did with unbelief Jews.

I respect John R. Rice very well. He was a Godly man. I read Dr. Rice's intepreting on Matt 24:13, he said, it is apply to the Jews only. Apply to the Jews only??? Christ does not saying it. Christ speaks to us both Jew and Gentile believers.

See? Osas teachers easily twist saying another way around to intepreting verses, not what the scriptures actually saying it.

We have to accept all scriptures, what these are talking about. Believe it, and obey them with fear and trembling too.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Law does not saved us. Law is worthless.

John 14:15 tells us, we must obey Christ's commandments. What is commandments? Do the commandments include law?

Does John chapter 15 apply to us? Does Matt 25:14-30 apply to us? Does Romans chapter 11 apply to us?


I believe we ought to obey God's commandments (John 14:15)

There is much debate about grace and works. Later, I will discuss about the grace. I know none of non-osas people ignore the doctrine of grace in the Bible. They believe in the God's grace. Later, I will discuss on the grace.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Me2]

If we truly cannot lose our salvation then what is Paul calling Gentile believers to fear in Romans 11:19-24?

reaction is besed on who's genes you possess

within their training, the child will be either responsive or rebellious.

depending on his or her calling. (vessels of wrath/mercy)
they will become an obedient child or disobedient child.

when we read in the bible to fear God. remember there are two kinds of fear.

the fear (fright) of the disobedient child
and the fear (awe) of the obedient child.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me2,

Does not matter to me what are the two kinds of ear.

Yet the Bible teaches us, that everyone of us, we must fear with trembling because God can kill us both soul and body cast into hell - Matt. 10:28.

Fear does not separate from trembling.

Most unbelievers saying, that they are not fear of God.

Wait till they die, then they will be FEAR AND TREMBLING face God judge them!

But, in fact, mostly of unbelievers saying, they are fear of face death.

In fact, we must be fear of God, why? Because He is so very holy and He is our Judge.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Me2]

Deafposttrib,

Wait till they die, then they will be FEAR AND TREMBLING face God judge them!

your guessing at the understanding based on no proof. just your own misunderstanding.
Jesus died for all sin.
they fear (fright) God because they do not understand the truth and nature of God.

(yet it is God who has blinded their understanding so that they will fulfill his purposes. and it is God who will uncover their eyes when their purpose has been fulfilled.)

besides, Mat 10:28 is a parable

if we are chosen to be a vessel of wrath, we will not understand. we receive the spirit of slumber.
we will not be trainable. disobedient
if we are chosen to be a vessel of mercy, we will understand because we receive the spirit of Christ.
and we will be trainable. obedient

Me2

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Not by my opinion or logical.

I already seen so many unbelievers saying that they are not fear of God. Also, I saw many teenagers wear t-shirt, it says, "No Fear".

Many teenagers seem not fear of God, they don't care about God, they seem saying, "So what?, who's cares?"

Wait till all teenagers die, then all of them will be FEAR and TREMBLING face God.

Matt. 10:28 is NOT parble!!!!

Christ warns us, that we must fear Him, because God have power to send person to hell with both soul and body.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

You have to read Romans chapter 1. There is NO excuse for people to see earth things that God created, they KNOW there is God.

But, they have no fear of God, they just don't care about God.

Part of it, as what you saying that they do not understand the natural of God's is true. Yes that correct.

You saying, God blinded people's understanding.

No, that is not true.

Satan's job is to blinded all people of the world from know the gospel of salvation - 2 Cor. 4:4.

That's why Matt 28:19-20, Mark 16:15; Acts 1:8 commanded us, that we must go and preach the gospel to EVERY person over the world to know the gospel, God desires every person come to repentance and be saved - 2 Peter 3:9.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Me2]

Deafposttrib,

Romans 1 is written about believers...

they knew. which means they were taught. by whom?

by the holy spirit.

they had the word of wisdom. they were persecuted and the faith which they thought they had.

they didnt.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

the process doesnt change. they changed the truth into a lie when the heard it. thus refusing the understanding when it was given.

they imagined what they wanted and when the understanding came. It didnt Jive.

* when God says "Im Sovereign" Disbelievers say. well Ive Got free will right?
* when God says love your enemy. Disbelievers says "but their sinners".
* When God says Jesus has been resurrected into your Flesh from the dead. the disbelievers What?!! Where?!!Nah! No way!! He's Up there Somewhere...

It dont take much to define vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

misinterpretation is inevitable.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

when God says God is Love. They hear "God is Gain".

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


they keep looking for Gods treasure.
but only end up digging up a lot of dirt.


Me2

 

[Abiyah]

Skandelon --

I believe this is what has happened in evangelical churches today. Theologians have removed the threat of scripture by teaching that we can't really lose our salvation. This has made for a church that claims to be Christian but lives like the world. Why not? I have my ticket, and according to my preacher I can't lose it.

Having been of the Arminian persuasion for nearly 50 years, my personal jury is still out regarding whether or not one can lose their salvation, but with your statement above, it makes me wonder who you base this premise upon. Good night, in all the years in which I have known any Calvinists, I have known only one (count her -- 1) person who believed in the manner you wrote above!

In fact, among all the Arminians I knew in just over 50 years of attendance in an Arminian church organization as well as discourse with other Arminians, there were only about four among those I knew well that I could point to and say, "This person appeared to me to live a sinless life." With reconsideration since writing that, I am not sure I could name four!

Rather, these people became deft, stealthy, as well as adamently secretive and out-right liars as they covered for themselves, because there was so much social pressure upon them not to admit sin within the church. In particular incidents, one minister could look me in the face and lie regarding his untrue gossip about me, refusing to apologize or to make it right. Another minister, when I confronted him to his face in complete privacy, denied that he had touched me inappropriately. My own father, a minister in that church, refused to acknowledge the horrible abuse his own children suffered at the hands of our mother, calling me a liar and disowning me, telling me I was no daughter of his three different times. A man who was once a major leader in that church was given a preapproved written statement to read regarding the fact that his wife left him over blatant dishonesty in that church; while the statement carefully told certain truths, it told them in such a way that it actually relayed a lie, yet that was considered all right.

While I love the people and pity them for their blindness, I have absolutely NO respect for the such Arminian beliefs. I fear that there are many among them who will never see our Lord.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I was speak of Romans 1:19-20 that it speak to people who are athiest or anyone don't believe in God, they KNOW there is God, no excuse for them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Both arminianists and calvinists are hyprocrisy. No one is perfect on earth - Romans 3:10, & 23.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Hamtramck_Mike]

Originally posted by Me2:
Deafposttrib,

Romans 1 is written about believers...

they knew. which means they were taught. by whom?

by the holy spirit.

they had the word of wisdom. they were persecuted and the faith which they thought they had.

they didnt.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

the process doesnt change. they changed the truth into a lie when the heard it. thus refusing the understanding when it was given.

they imagined what they wanted and when the understanding came. It didnt Jive.

* when God says "Im Sovereign" Disbelievers say. well Ive Got free will right?
* when God says love your enemy. Disbelievers says "but their sinners".
* When God says Jesus has been resurrected into your Flesh from the dead. the disbelievers What?!! Where?!!Nah! No way!! He's Up there Somewhere...

It dont take much to define vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

misinterpretation is inevitable.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

when God says God is Love. They hear "God is Gain".

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


they keep looking for Gods treasure.
but only end up digging up a lot of dirt.


Me2

Thank You Me2! Every day I have to ask myself, am I nuts? Am I just reading what I want to see? Or am I seeing what the Holy Spirit is giving me? And while I am praying on these things (and also praying for each and every one of you as well; you are all ever in my prayers) I open up the Scriptures and God sees fit to give me yet ANOTHER infallable proof of His ABSOLUTE SOVERIEGNTY over everything that ever was, is , and ever shall be!

Oh dear bretheren, that I could gather you all into a conference room with coffee and snacks and fellowship with you all, I love you all so much and rely upon you and think of you more than you know! You are all ever in my heart!

I sometimes feel that I cannot type fast enough to get my thoughts across as to the wonderful things God has done in my life and ever continues to do but it will have to suffice to take these things one at a time as they come up. God Bless,


Michael

 

[Me2]

Howdy Michael,

nice to find other agree here with me for a change.

I better take a picture.

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Skandelon,

Sorry, I'm probably not going to have enough time to persue this properly here on Baptist Board, but I'll give it a go...

Originally posted by Skandelon:
Parents say to their children, "If you don't clean your room you are going to get a spanken."

What motivates the child to clean? The threat of a spanken, right?

Dead right! But...

Your analogy is one refering to obedience. But if salvation is dependent on obedience, then this is extremely close to salvation by works. What part do works play in salvation? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!" No works here.

But your point is still absolutely valid: why should we behave? The Bible is clear about the "fear of God", and that motivation is repeated time after time after time (and no, one verse in 1 John cannot over-ride this). For example, Paul knew he was going to be judged by God for his works, and it was FEAR of this that caused him to evangelize:

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." (2 Cor 5:10-11)

I maintain that, whether salvation can be lost or not, it has NOTHING to do with works. So why does Paul fear at this judgement of works?

Answer: there have been many down the years who taught that, rather than losing salvation, Christians could miss the future 1000-year kingdom that Jesus will set up when he returns, and be punished instead. This will be dependent on their walk and works. Not only is this what I think the passage you refer to in Romans 11 is talking of (again, we are told to "fear"), but is also spelled on in many other verses, e.g.:

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9,10)

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Eph 5:5)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Mat 7:21)

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright... Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." (Heb 12:14-16, 28-29)

All these verses are about works - the motivation (here and in the many other verses that teach this) is fear of punishment and banishment for the duration of the kingdom. If we CAN lose our salvation, it must be to do with faith, not works.

Well THERE'S controversy for you...

P.S. Sorry in advance if I don't manage to reply too many times.

 

[AllOfGrace]

I think a major stumblingblock in seeing the truth about preservation (note, I don't use the word perseverence. If I endure it is because I am preserved, not persevere) is the warnings in the scripture.

However, a warning about the consequences of an action does not mean that God will allow the action. It can merely be another means by which He chasens us as children.

An example — I am watching a child near a fireplace. I will tell that child to avoid the fire because if he goes there it will cause great pain. Still, even after the warning, I make sure the child does NOT go into the fire. If it begins to happen, I will intervene.

The logic used by people that say you can lose your salvation is that, because I warn the child that means that I have the intention of allowing it to happen. That is not a solid assumption. God can (and does) warn us about falling away without having any intention of allowing it to happen.