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Featured The GOD that refuses to save

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by atpollard, Mar 15, 2022.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    From another topic (name redacted):
    Rather than draw a soon to close topic off track, let us start a fresh topic to examine the implications of the statement made and accusations presented at the character of God.

    Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?
    Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ?


    That is what this statement accuses God of doing.

    Does Calvinism teach that "salvation does not depend on men" and "men are unable to will (desire) salvation"?
    (Can Calvinists provide verses in support for the person quoted anonymously?)

    Does salvation depend on the man that wills (the will of man)? (scripture verses, please?)
    Is God obligated to accept all who ask?

    Does this "problem" really exist?
     
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  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    People who have not been able to understand grace get confused about such things.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:16 is a followup of what Paul says on God choosing Jacob over Easu for SERVICE, and that His will and plan is His own, and does not depend on our human understanding. The Calvinists hijack this passage, as they do others, to force their theology on to the Word of God! :eek:
     
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Be that as it may, the bigger issue of "predestination and free will" remains with the unanswered questions:

    Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?
    Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ?
     
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  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    every day many Christians WILL to do many things, and they simply cannot!

    Many years ago, at ther end of a Bible study, I asked the question, "how really FREE is free will"? No one responded! The jury is still out.

    When it comes to salvation, I have always believed, as a non Calvinist, that no sinner, who is totally lost in sin, and estranged from God, can wake one day, and in and of themselves says, today I have decided to follow Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord. This is an IMPOSSIBILITY!
     
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    no
     
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that the nuns and monks don't will to be saved? You think that anyone wants to go to eternal punishment?
     
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  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Where does it say service at in that passage?

    why does “service” matter?

    jacob have I loved. Esau have I hated
     
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  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Hell is the Lord granting to lost sinners "thy will be done", as if they could not stand God in their life, Heaven would be like hell tot hem!
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The bold is not accurate. Why? Look at Hebrews 12:15-17.
    See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

    God chose to love Jacob and despise Esau, not because of their righteousness or unrighteousness, but purely because the Sovereign God decided before the twins were even born.
    Romans 9:8-12
    This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
     
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  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:12
    it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
     
  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    But these people love the Lord not hate Him. I am not saying that they are saved
     
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    None loves the Lord naturally, as their sin nature are at war with God!
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    so you really think, that even though they are wrong and deceived, that the nuns and monks in the RCC are at war with God, and hate Him? I think that you are well wrong on this. It might be a "human love", but it is not "hate"
     
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  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. NSAB

    What did this person say:

    Romans 9:16 says salvation does not depend on the man that wills, but Calvinism says it means salvation does not depend on the man that is unable to will.

    Actually there is no one that by his own will can be saved that is the right of God alone. But for any bible believing Christian then the answer is yes they had a will to be saved. Once a person has been convicted by the Holy Spirit that they are a sinner in need of a savoiur then if they, by their God given free will, repent and trust in Christ Jesus for salvation that is an action of the will.

    When you read what this person wrote “but Calvinism says it means salvation does not depend on the man that is unable to will.” That is a true statement. Just look at your WCF / LBCF or TULIP. If God decrees all things then is man able to go against what God has decreed? And your TULIP, Irresistible Grace, if God does not give you the grace to come to Him can you fight it? I think not. Now look at “Unconditional Election” for the calvinist this means that only those that are chosen by God are able to be saved.

    The statement does not accuse God of making the willing man unable, calvinism does that. Note the words “but Calvinism says it means”. Calvinism has added to scripture what is not there and then accuses others of not understanding scripture.

    Atpollard it seems you are building strawmen so you can knock them down. You ask the question “Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?” JW’s, Mormons, Jews, RC’s shall I go on. Many people desire to be saved but they do not reach salvation because they want to do it their way and not the way that God prescribed. Faith in His son.

    You also asked “Does salvation depend on the man that wills (the will of man)?” Well have to qualify that answer 1] Salvation depends on God as only God can save, but 2] it also depends on man as God will only save those that believe. Eph 1:13; Rom 10:9; Rom 10:8-15 But the sad part is the not all will desire to follow Christ Jesus. Rom 10:16

    So the question becomes why would man will to be saved? Paul gives us the answer in Rom 10:17 “...hearing by the word of Christ.” God's Holy Spirit accompanies the teaching and preaching of the Word to convict and call sinners to repentance, and salvation. Men are called to believe the gospel that Christ Jesus:

    A) "died for our sins

    B) was buried for our sins

    C) and rose again, the third day for our sins, according to the scriptures."

    This is the gospel message and those that accept it will be saved those that reject it or add to or subtract from it will not be saved. So when you ask is God obligated to save all those that ask, then the answer is no.

    I hope this brings some clarity to this topic.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    God is not obligated to save anyone. However:
    Isaiah 45:22. 'Look to Me, all you ends of the earth and be saved.'
    Matthew 11:28. Come to Me , all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.'
    John 6:37. '......The one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out.'
    Revelation 22:17. 'And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely.'

    I think we should take God at His word.
     
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  17. timdabap

    timdabap Member

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    When you build a house, do YOU have the right to choose who lives in it with you ?
    Or not.
    When you OWN the land, do YOU have the right to say HOW anyone enters into it, or not.
    Did God say Heaven is His throne, and the Earth, His footstool, or did He not.
    God created heaven (Genesis 1:1), does HE not decide who lives in it, and set the standards for those who live in it, does He own heaven, just as He owns everything under heaven, or does He not.

    Did Job deserve suffering all that he suffered, when God Himself called him righteous before Him ? Yet when Job began to look for reasons for what is happening to him, God asked Job where he was when He laid the foundations of the earth and the answer was: NOWHERE.
     
    #17 timdabap, Mar 15, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2022
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  18. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Are there people that "will" to be saved, but are not?
    Has God rejected some that desired to come to Christ?

    Life Guards are taught a particular method as they attempt to save a person from drowning.
    It’s not as simple one might think: simply swimming towards the drowning person and reaching out to them is dangerous.

    The victim wants be saved but that is not enough.
    In their desperate condition, they will grab at anything,
    usually causing the demise of both victim and rescuer.
    Lifesavers are taught to come up from underneath the victim.

    So it is with salvation, it is not enough to desire salvation (although it plays a role)
    God has prescribed a certain method for a person to be saved.
    To be effective they must be saved in a proper way (through the blood of Jesus).

    The OT is filled with examples of God’s chosen people, graced with the privilege of knowing God’s Law, yet turning away from him, I’m thinking particularly of King Saul.
    There was a desire, yet God rejected him.

    Rob
     
    #18 Deacon, Mar 15, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2022
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    "Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness". Why? Because God has wrought within them. They're alive. Dead men don't hunger or thirst.
     
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  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Dead men cant reject anything either
     
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