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Featured The Great God and Saviour of us Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jun 24, 2021.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Titus 2:13

    “προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ” (Titus 2:13)

    How should these words be rendered into English? There are two main readings:

    Those, like the King James Version, refer these words to Two Persons:

    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ” (1611)

    The Revised Version of 1881, refers the words to One Person, Jesus Christ:

    “looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”

    There is a third, which is the literal reading of the Greek text:

    “looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and Saviour of us Jesus Christ”

    The genitive, “ἡμῶν”, can be translated as “of us”, as it can be in other places, like Galatians 1:4, where the literal reading of the Greek, “τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς ἡμῶν”, is, “the will of the God and Father of us

    I am not going to refer to the “First Rule” of the Greek Scholar, Granville Sharpe, which some use for the reading of Titus 2:13, as the RV. Because I have seen that this “Rule” is not always the case, as I have found examples in the New Testament, and Patristic Greek, that do not hold up. As I will show, the reading of the RV, and the majority of English Versions, can be shown apart from this “Rule”, of the Greek grammar.

    In the first place, if Paul had written, “τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου κυρίου καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ”, there would be no problem in it being translated as , “the Glory of our Great Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”, and referring all the words to One Person, Jesus Christ. It is only because some reject that Jesus Christ, IS called here “The Great God”; and others, who are “Evangelical” Christians, hesitate to use this for Jesus, that there is any discussion on this verse. In Isaiah 9:6, one of the Names for Jesus Christ, in the Prophetic passage, is “אֵל גִּבּוֹר”, which is, “Mighty God”. Here also, some have tried to remove any reference to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by translating the words, “Mighty chief” (Ibn Ezra, 12th century); “The Mighty God is planning grace” (JPS. 1999), etc,. However, the same Hebrew, “אֵל גִּבּוֹר”, is used in Isaiah 10:21, for Yahweh, and it is always translated, even by Ibn Ezra, and the JPS version, by “mighty God”. In fact, the Jewish Targum, reads in Isaiah 9:6, “the mighty God who liveth to eternity, the Messiah” (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 9:5). This is a Jewish translation, and the passage is Messianic, and reads, “the mighty God”. Manuscripts of the LXX Greek Old Testament, read, “Θεὸς ἰσχυρός”, which is, “God Mighty”. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW’s) read “Mighty God”! Why do some say that the Apostle Paul could not call Jesus Christ, “the Great God”, when it is exactly what the Prophet Isaiah says of Jesus Christ?

    In Acts 20:28, we have the Apostle Paul say, “the Church of the God (του θεου), which He has purchased with His own blood”. Clear reference to Jesus Christ as God, Who died on the cross. This cannot refer to the Father. In the natural reading of Romans 9:5, “Christ Who is over all God blessed for ever. Amen”, Paul again calls Jesus Christ God. In Romans 10:13, Paul says, “For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved”. Which is from Joel 2:32, “And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be delivered” The Greek Version, the Septuagint, reads, “ And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”. Clearly in Romans, Paul uses the verse from Joel, which is about Yahweh, for Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 10:9, again Paul says, “Neither let us tempt the Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents”. This also is a reference to the Old Testament, Numbers 21:6, “And Yahweh sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died”, which Paul uses for Jesus Christ. Then, in Philippians 2:6, Paul says of Jesus Christ, “Who is from eternity (ὑπάρχων) in the very nature of God”. Which is what he also says in Colossians 2:9, “For in Him dwells (κατοικει, continually) all the fullness of the Deity (θεότης, “deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead”, Thayer Greek lexicon) bodily”. Can any doubt that Paul taught that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, The Almighty God?

    2 Timothy 4:1 is very similar to Titus 2:13

    “Διαμαρτύρομαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ τοῦ μέλλοντος κρίνειν ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς, καὶ τὴν ἐπιφάνειαν αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ”

    “I charge you in the presence of the God and Christ Jesus, Who is about to Judge the living and the dead, and by His Appearing and His Kingdom”

    Here, “τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ”, refers to one Person, Jesus Christ, Who is called God. “τοῦ μέλλοντος κρίνειν”, Singular, “Who is about to Judge”. Like Titus, here Paul also speaks of the “ἐπιφάνειαν (Appearance)” of Jesus Christ. Also it is “βασιλείαν αὐτοῦ”, again in the singular, “His Kingdom”, all referring to Jesus Christ. The particle “καὶ” is used in the sense as “even”, connecting “God” with “Christ Jesus”.

    In 2 Peter 1:1, again we read, “του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου”. Which is, “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”, One Person Who is “God and Saviour”. In verse 11 it reads, “του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”, as it does in 2:20 “του κυρίου καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”. And in 3:18, “του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου”. The first, “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. The second, “of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. And the third, “of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”. In the first and third readings, the words are almost identical to 1:1, the ONLY difference being, “θεου” is in 1:1, and the others read, “κυρίου”.

    The JW’s translate 2 Peter 1:1, “"of our God and [the] Saviour Jesus Christ" (Kingdom Interlinear). “the” is in brackets so not in the Greek. And in the Emphatic Diaglott, “of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”. Again, clear testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ. In the Unitarian New Testament by George Noyes, 2 Peter 1:1, reads, “of our God, and the Saviour Jesus Christ”. Yet in the other three places, it reads as I have given the English above. The JW’ are the same here. I mention this because it is important to see how the Word of God is twisted by those who oppose the Bible’s Teaching on the Deity of Jesus Christ. Not because of what the Bible actually teaches, but for their theology.

    There are some, who do not accept that this verse is about Jesus Christ, who argue, that this “Appearing”, is only of Jesus in the sense that He will Come in “τῆς δόξης” (the Glory), of the Father, and apply “τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ” (the Great God), to the Father. In Matthew 16:27, Jesus Himself says, “For the Son of man shall Come in the Glory of His Father”. Paul does not say in Titus 2:13, “τοῦ μεγάλου πατρος” (the Glory of the Father), which would have removed any ambiguity. Even if we were to accept that Paul does mean, that “τῆς δόξης”, is that of “the Father”, in what sense are we to understand this? Surely this must mean that God the Father, and Jesus Christ, share in the one same Glory. Whether we understand “τῆς δόξης”, as referring to, “Honour, Renown, Glory”; or, to “ Shekinah Glory”, the “Splendor”, by which Yahweh Appeared in the Old Testament. This would make Jesus Christ as COEQUAL with the Father, and prove His Deity. In John 17:5, Jesus says, “And now, O Father, Glorify You Me with (πᾰρά, alongside) Your own self with the Glory ( τη δοξη) which I had (ειχον, always had) with (πᾰρά, alongside) You before the world existed”. The “Glory” of the Father and Jesus Christ has from eternity past, been EQUAL, and the SAME. In Hebrews 1:3, we read of Jesus Christ, “ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξης”, “Who being (always) the Effulgence of The Glory”, not (His Glory as in some Versions, which is not in the Greek). In Isaiah 42:8, we read, “I am Yahweh, that is My Name; I will not give My Glory to another, Nor My praise to idols”. For Jesus Christ to have the SAME Glory as the Father, can only mean that He is Almighty God. In Revelation 5:13, it says about the Father and Jesus Christ, that ALL “The Blessing, and The Honor, and The Glory (η δοξα), and The Power”, belong to BOTH. And in the next verse, They are BOTH Worshipped. The language of Titus is clear to the Deity of Jesus Christ.

    Had the Apostle Paul wished to show that “the Great God” refers to “God the Father”, and “our Saviour” to “Jesus Christ”. He would have made this very clear, where there can be no doubt in the Greek, by writing, “τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ”. By using the Greek article “τοῦ” with “σωτῆρος” (Saviour), he would have clearly shown the distinction of the Two Persons.

    Only those who cannot accept that the Bible does, in many places, Teach the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, will have problems with these verses, and translate and understand them according to their theology, and not as the Bible teaches. Their inconsistencies, as we have seen, when they render the Greek into English, is for their purposes, and does not reflect the truth as in Scripture.
     
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I have always understood Titus 2:13 in the KJV to mean and refer to say our Savior Jesus Christ to be the great God who is to appear.

    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, . . ."
     
    #2 37818, Jun 24, 2021
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The reading that you give here as in the KJV, refers to TWO
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If a person is a KJVO, then the failure to incorporate the Granville Sharpe rule is not an error, as there are no errors in the KJV. Do not get sidetracked into unedifying debate. The Granville Sharpe rule is applicable to only two Christology important verses, Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 according to Dr. Dan Wallace.
     
    #4 Van, Jun 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2021
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No, not unless you understand God is being said to be visible in that text. (1 John 4:12.) I never in all my years have ever understood two persons to be said to appear in Titus 2:13 KJV.
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    what you understand, is quite different from what the KJV actually reads.
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Granville Sharpe so called "first rule" is NOT without its exceptions, as I have seen in the NT and writing in the Greek text of the Church fathers, which is why I never use this "rule" for this passage.
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Granville Sharpe's rule was not until 1798. And the the KJV does correctly translate Titus 2:13 to refer to the great God to refer to our Savior Jesus Christ.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Then why was it not translated as two "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; . . ." . . . και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου . . ."?
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The point is that it can be as the genitive is used
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I edited my post to cite only two verses. The rule applies to them without exception.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    When the rule is correctly applied in the NT text, will be true!
    Granville Sharp’s Rule
    ww.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Kjv does have it as 2 Persons in mind there!
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJV)

    Thus the above indicates in addition to the great God is our Savior.

    And here is the NKJV:
    Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

    The accurate translation removes any ambiguity as to whether one person or two is in view.
     
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  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sharp's "Rule" fails here! Matthew 17:1, “τον πετρον και ιακωβον και ιωαννην”

    and here...

    Romans 1:7, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”

    1 Corinthians 1:3, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”

    2 Corinthians 1:2, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”

    Galatians 1:3, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοϋ Χριστοῦ”

    And in Patristic Greek

    Polycarp Martydom 22 (about 155 AD), “δόζα τώ θεώ καί πατρί καί άγίω πνεύματι…ω ή δόξα σύν τώ πατρί καϊ άγίω πνεύματι εις ούς αιώνας τών αιώνων, αμήν”
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    in Greek BOTH are allowed!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "We cannot discuss here the problem of Tit 213 , for we must, as grammarians, leave the matter open" (A Grammar of New Testament Greek, vol.I, Prolegomena, p.84)
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, an interpretation can be grammatically correct, yet ambiguous or misleading.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    read the second last para in the OP
     
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  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hence ambiguity. :) Had the translation made the reference to one Person clear, as the NKJV, there would be no issue to discuss.
     
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