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Featured The High Priestly Prayer

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020.

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  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How do non-Calvinists reconcile Christ's High Priestly prayer where he is clearly saying that he is talking about the elect and not the whole world meaning every person?
     
    #1 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2020
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    As a Classical Arminian, I have no problem with it. C.A.s have long held that though in general grace is resistable and election is conditional, God in His sovereignty did and at times still does choose to unconditionally elect and irresistably draw some to Himself.
     
    #2 Reynolds, Apr 10, 2020
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Youre going to have to post the passage
     
    #3 Revmitchell, Apr 10, 2020
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Who doesn't know that the High Priestly Prayer of Christ is John 17?
     
    #4 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
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  5. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You would still have a conflict. Jesus says those that were given to him. Those are the ones he is praying for. Those are the ones whom he is about to die for. This is verified by the rest of John as well. Nothing about a conditional election. Nothing about a resistable grace.
     
    #5 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So God operates in salvation as a Calvinist at times, and then as CA in other times?
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Apr 10, 2020
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    That prayer was specific for the 11. Everything to do with U and I.
     
    #7 Reynolds, Apr 10, 2020
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  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Actually it was not specific, he even says not praying only for those.
     
    #8 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
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  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    David you assume to much... You've taken the meaning out of context... In John 16 Jesus is talking to his disciples, and not every elect disciple, that will walk on the face of the earth... Now unless you saw him bodily, this does not apply to you or us... These disciples were eyewitness to his resurrection and John 17 says so... This does not apply to Cals or Non-Cals, follow scripture... Brother Glen:)

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
     
    #9 tyndale1946, Apr 10, 2020
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  10. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Nope. God operates as He wills.
     
    #10 Reynolds, Apr 10, 2020
  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Actually He doesnt until verse 20. 6-19 was for the 11 and most Bibles have titled that section as such for many, many years.
     
    #11 Reynolds, Apr 10, 2020
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Are you really going to appeal to manmade pericopes for your argument? It is clearly one long discourse prayer. Jesus yes he talks about the eleven, but then throws in all future elect as well. Not the whole world.
     
    #12 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I am going to appeal that the knowledge of the translators and editors is greater than your knowledge. Absent that, I personally read it as a separation at v 20.
     
    #13 Reynolds, Apr 10, 2020
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    It makes no sense to separate it.

    The ESV does not separate it. The NASB doesn't separate it. The NIV doesn't separate it. KJV doesn't have headings for it. The CSB doesn't separate it. What are all of these translators that separate this prayer? Who are they? Where are they?
     
    #14 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yes, Really. On this site people call all kinds of things all kinds of things. Never assume.

    Further, just because He prays for He and the Father (1-5), then He and the disciples (6-19), then all would believe as a result of the witness of the disciples does not establish election as you see it (20-26).
     
    #15 Revmitchell, Apr 10, 2020
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  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    It does when he specifically says they are the ones given to him by the Father.
     
    #16 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That is a reference to the disciples
     
    #17 Revmitchell, Apr 10, 2020
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  18. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    NIV, CSB, HCSB, NET, NIRV, NKJV are the ones that quickly come to mind.
     
    #18 Reynolds, Apr 10, 2020
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Verse 24
     
    #19 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    NIV, CSB, HCSB do not separate it. No it doesn't.
     
    #20 Reformed1689, Apr 10, 2020
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