The History Channel)Shroud of Turin =The Real Face of Jesus (full)

[Bro. Curtis]

What question? The oxymoron that pertained to your referencing a video you refuse to watch, while asking if it will answer your questions?

His shroud. His robe. His sandals. Heck, we may someday find his cross, or the very crown of thorns he wore. If you found them, would that show the world the Lamb of God ? Born of a virgin ? Sinless life ? Victorious over death ?

That you think the shoud of Turin is a Catholic icon demonstrates you are not equipped to even engage in discussion on this issue.

Never said it was Catholic. I said YOU sound like a Catholic. I think it's a cloth. You are the one who hopes/thinks/wants it to have any power.

I'll ignore the rest of your remarks here.

You've already ignored most of them, and made up some others.

I believe you have taken an intense dislike to me since the obscene assault on women you attempted to interject here with the posting of your "feminist" thread.
My Lord also died to forgive Misogynists.
However, he did not say I have to entertain their hatred.
God forgive you your hatred. May you find Christ.

You are insignificant to me. I am the one you are telling is full of hate, doesn't have Christ. BTW, doubting someone's salvation is against the rules here, but I'm not going to report you.

And goodbye.

I know you don't like to answer direct questions, but here goes….


You said I attacked your faith. My question is, your faith in what ?

 

[Revmitchell]

Wow. Just, wow.

There you go. We can even say it backwards......wow

 

[CatMommy]

There you go. We can even say it backwards......wow

The joy of palindromes.

 

[Zenas]

Items such as the Shroud of Turin are known as “sacramentals” and their usage is well documented in scripture. For example:

And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased; And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole. Matthew 14:35-36.

“for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.” John 5:4.

“[T]hey even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.” Acts 5:15.

“God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out.” Acts 19:11-12.

I don’t know if it has been documented that the Shroud has healing powers but, to anyone who studies its history and examines the scientific evidence, it serves as a powerful witness. If it is indeed the burial cloth of Christ, then we have tangible proof of His crucifixion and resurrection. How could any gospel message be more powerful than that?

 

[CatMommy]

Thank you so much for that.
There are two cases of miraculous healing attributed to the shroud that I'm aware of.
The first was King Agabar V of Edessa. He was terminally ill and was healed when he looked on the shroud. That was in the later 500's.
Supposedly, as relates to Edessa, when the Persian army was laying siege to the palace, being the shroud was in residence at the time, members of the king's house brought the shroud to the top of the castle wall and unfolded it in full display to the Persians who then fled at the sight of it.

In the 20th century an English girl, if I remember correctly, named Josie Wollam was healed of bone cancer when the shroud was draped across the arms of her wheelchair.

This happened when she was very young, 10 or 11 I think. She should be nearly 70 now if she's still alive.

 

[Jerome]

Don't forget the Veil of Veronica. I learned about that one from a Reformed Baptist pastor who taught through the Stations of the Cross.

 

[CatMommy]

I've not heard of the veil of Veronica. Perhaps you can start a thread and share with us?

 

[Jerome]

Apparently it's similar to your Shroud tale:

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...search_for_the_face_of_christ_in_their_lives/

"Veronica’s Veil is, according to tradition, a cloth used to wipe the sweat and blood from the face of Jesus on his way to the crucifixion. The veil is believed to have been miraculously imprinted with an image of the Holy Face."

 

[Zenas]

Does anyone actually claim to have the veil of Veronica? Well, I guess they do after reading Jerome's Post #28.

Jerome, how are you so smart that you always know the source of cutting edge information?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Being the cynical person that I am, I've always found the story shroud to be dubious.

I have always been very skeptical of the shroud. Here's why.

• The Bible says that after his death that Jesus didn't even look human. I don't see much signs of physical suffering in the shroud to cause someone to not look human. (Isaiah 52:14) The Suffering Servant

• The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out.

• Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas.

There's more, but for those who believe, I won't convince them and for those who doubt, they need no more discussion.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Being the cynical person that I am, I've always found the story shroud to be dubious.

I have always been very skeptical of the shroud. Here's why.

• The Bible says that after his death that Jesus didn't even look human. I don't see much signs of physical suffering in the shroud to cause someone to not look human. (Isaiah 52:14) The Suffering Servant

• The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out.

• Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas.

There's more, but for those who believe, I won't convince them and for those who doubt, they need no more discussion.

Those are some very good points that I hadn't considered, and I doubt most have. This should be enough to dissuade anyone right here.

 

[CatMommy]

Being the cynical person that I am, I've always found the story shroud to be dubious.

I have always been very skeptical of the shroud. Here's why.

• The Bible says that after his death that Jesus didn't even look human. I don't see much signs of physical suffering in the shroud to cause someone to not look human. (Isaiah 52:14) The Suffering Servant

• The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out.

• Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas.

There's more, but for those who believe, I won't convince them and for those who doubt, they need no more discussion.

Did you watch the video in the OP?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The fact that the cloth is believed to have the power to heal is the worst part. Don't tell me this isn't worship. If you think the cloth has the power to heal you have deified it. It is extremely troubling.

The impression of the face shows a completely manicured beard and mustache. The Bible says in the Messianic chapter of Isaiah 50 that Jesus' beard was ripped out.
Matthew 27:27-31 says that Jesus was beaten about the head with a staff "again and again". The face in the shroud shows no sign of being beaten: no swollen features and no hematomas.

Yup. The face bears the resemblance of the Catholic's picture of Jesus, which several scholars have said he would not have looked like that. He was not a Nazarite, he would not have had long hair.

 

[CatMommy]

Now we have three people who won't watch the video but present themselves as credible to tear it apart. Please don't troll my thread. If you have nothing constructive to say and think to release slings and arrows, seek to deliver your assaults elsewhere. Rather than appear foolish attempting to denigrate the content of a video you haven't watched.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Nazarite law. He took the shame of humanity, the sins, with him on the cross.

1Corinthians 11:14

How would anyone think he wouldn't have long hair?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Did you watch the video in the OP?

No, I didn't. It's an hour and half long. I don't have that kind of time.

Can you give us the nuts and bolts of anything new that they have "discovered". I have read about why believers in the shroud retain that belief for years. Is anything new in the video.

Besides .... I don't put much stock in the history channel as far as giving reliable history lessons. And they have butchered biblical accounts in the past.

The history channel isn't what it used to be.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Now we have three people who won't watch the video but present themselves as credible to tear it apart. Please don't troll my thread. If you have nothing constructive to say and think to release slings and arrows, seek to deliver your assaults elsewhere. Rather than appear foolish attempting to denigrate the content of a video you haven't watched.

Are you talking to me, or about me ?

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Nazarite law. He took the shame of humanity, the sins, with him on the cross.

1Corinthians 11:14

How would anyone think he wouldn't have long hair?

He never takes the vow of the Nazarite. He touched dead bodies, so he could not have been one.


Now since I know you're talking to me, why don't you answer my questions ?

His shroud. His robe. His sandals. Heck, we may someday find his cross, or the very crown of thorns he wore. If you found them, would that show the world the Lamb of God ? Born of a virgin ? Sinless life ? Victorious over death ?

Kindly answer me.

Then this….

You said I attacked your faith. My question is, your faith in what ?

Lastly, tell me if you really believe the cloth has the power to heal.

 

[CatMommy]

Well, for one, the point you said about his face not being wounded is not true.
Secondly, per the critics who say per an old legend, that this was a fraudulent rendering created by a monk long years ago using a stencil and inks is proven not to be true.

Further, there is a radiant aspect to what created the image in the shroud like unto the light one sees emitted by a scanner in a three dimensional penetration of the flax fibers.

With respect, I think if people have time to criticize a video's content that they haven't watched, which is just a little odd, then they should take the time to watch the video so as to be taken seriously when they make remarks against what they know nothing about.

Old shroud information is addressed in this recent video and it is rendered in the light of new research and the technology to support it.

Not you per say, but there are some here who are intent on trolling any thread I make. You seem to be quite reasonable. I'd suggest if you can make the time to visit this forum that you can take the time to watch the video. Even if not in one sitting but in packets of time. It is well worth the time I think.

I use to believe all the old stuff about the shroud being fake. This latest research has even clergy, featured in the video, taking note.

Further, I think those who dismiss miracles are showing that they not only put constraints on the power of God and the Lord Jesus, but they imagine that God wouldn't be able to heal through even the laying on of hands on a Cracker Jack box, if that was the vehicle by which Christ and his spirit , that is alive in all things to this day, chose to use so as to deliver someone to his spirit and by his will to be healed.

I'd look more askance at the one who argues what Christ would never do, than I'd look at what the scriptures tell us is infinitely possible through the power and will of Jesus.

For the record edit: I have set the most intent trolls to ignore so that I do not have to endure their fallen nature that targets my person and posts. However, it is not possible to delete their screen names so as to see they remain consistent in their agenda. *waves* May God forgive you yet again.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Well, for one, the point you said about his face not being wounded is not true.
Secondly, per the critics who say per an old legend, that this was a fraudulent rendering created by a monk long years ago using a stencil and inks is proven not to be true.

Further, there is a radiant aspect to what created the image in the shroud like unto the light one sees emitted by a scanner in a three dimensional penetration of the flax fibers.

With respect, I think if people have time to criticize a video's content that they haven't watched, which is just a little odd, then they should take the time to watch the video so as to be taken seriously when they make remarks against what they know nothing about.

Old shroud information is addressed in this recent video and it is rendered in the light of new research and the technology to support it.

Not you per say, but there are some here who are intent on trolling any thread I make. You seem to be quite reasonable. I'd suggest if you can make the time to visit this forum that you can take the time to watch the video. Even if not in one sitting but in packets of time. It is well worth the time I think.

I use to believe all the old stuff about the shroud being fake. This latest research has even clergy, featured in the video, taking note.

Further, I think those who dismiss miracles are showing that they not only put constraints on the power of God and the Lord Jesus, but they imagine that God wouldn't be able to heal through even the laying on of hands on a Cracker Jack box, if that was the vehicle by which Christ and his spirit , that is alive in all things to this day, chose to use so as to deliver someone to his spirit and by his will to be healed.

I'd look more askance at the one who argues what Christ would never do, than I'd look at what the scriptures tell us is infinitely possible through the power and will of Jesus.

Don't act like a victim. You're being asked some very good questions, despite your insistence that they are only based in a personal hatred of you. And I'm not going to stop asking them.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Three things:


[1] I was not attacking your video. I was not attacking you. I saw a thread discussing the Shroud of Turin and I voiced an opinion. When I gave my opinion of the shroud, I was not thinking of you, the video that I did not watch, nor anyone else who has posted on the thread. If you do not wish people posting who have a dissenting opinion, then please specify that in the OP.

[2] The Bible clearly states that the crucified Jesus was beaten to the point that He was “no longer recognizable as human.” Beard pulled “out of his face” and his face beaten "over and over with blunt objects". His face would have swollen and bruised according to the Bible to the point where he was not recognizable. This trauma to the face would not have disappeared post mortem. The shroud does not match the Biblical crucified Jesus. The face on the shroud is CLEARLY human and relatively unmarked. The beard is intact.

Here is a still clip FROM the history channel video in question:

The History Channel's 3D face of Jesus from the shroud.

[3]Jesus was not a Nazarite. He never took the vow. How do I know? The book of Numbers, chapter 6, gives the qualifications for those men and women who desired to take the Nazarite vow.

• They could not drink wine. Jesus drank wine many times. Most notably at the last supper when after drinking with the disciples, He said that he wouldn’t drink AGAIN until He drank it in the New Kingdom. If He drank wine at that seder (if indeed it was a true seder), it’s safe to assume He drank at many, many Passovers. The Pharisees called Jesus a wine-bibber because he ate and drank with sinners so much.

• They could not eat grapes – either whole or in raisin form, seed or skin. I don’t know if Jesus ate any of this.

• They could not cut their hair. We don’t know about Jesus’ hair. I have seen pictures of Israelite jars from the time of Christ and the men painted on them did not have hair passed their ears and chins. But that’s just circumstantial.

• They could not come NEAR a dead body. Jesus touched the bier, or the coffin-like thing, of the widow’s dead son and he held the hand of the little girl that he raised from the dead.

Ergo, Jesus was not a Nazarite.

 

[CatMommy]

I didn't say it was you that was levying the attack.
I will say it is not wise to critique a video one has never watched.

As per your claim that Jesus was not a Nazarite, as you wish. That isn't the focus of this thread.