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Featured The Jehovah's Witnesses and God's first creation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Sep 19, 2020.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    FYI the two Bible references (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14) for which JWs use to claim the Son of God is a creature and as such God's first creation.

    What they need to hear from a Christian are three truths.
    1. The sole Creator, John 1:3 became part of His own creation when He became flesh, John 1:10, John 1:14.
    2. That "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 mean as a man, being as a man being now part of His own creation, is the first to be resurrected per Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5.
    3. As the first to be resurrected He is the beginning of His new creation, the New Heaven and Earth, Revelation 21:1 per Revelation 3:14 which is per Colossians 1:18.

    The main thing the JW needs to believe is as a Bible believing Christian this is your understanding and so you believe those three truths.
     
  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes, yes. This is Sound as a Gold Dollar.

    Wonderful treatment.

    If they can eat meat, people would LOVE to see this and have it explained,
    FOR THE GLORY of GOD.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ is NOT the SOLE Creator, as both the Father and Holy Spirit also actively created, along with the Son, as in the words of Genesis 1:26, "Then God said, “Let US make man in our image, after OUR likeness...".This no doubt is used for the Persons of the Holy Trinity, as One. Passages like Hebrews 2:10 teach that God the Father created the universe, "For it was fitting that He, for whom and by Whom all things exist". Jesus Christ, in passages like John 1:3, "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made". And the Holy Spirit, in Job 33:4, "The Spirit of God has made (‛âśâh, same Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:4, for the creation of the universe) me". I have used the passages from Hebrews and John for a reason. In both we have the words, "by" and "through", which are from the same Greek preposition, "διά", in both places in the genitive. There are some, like the late George Ladd, who make Jesus Christ, from the verse John 1:3, to mean that He is not the actual Creator, but "through" Whom God the Father, did the Creating! If this is true for John 1:3, then it must be true also in Hebrews 2:10, when used for the Father, where it should read, "through Whom", where someone other than the Father is creating "through" Him!. This preposition in the Greek, also has the meaning, "of oneself, not by another's agency", which is what it means in both John 1:3, and Hebrews 2:10. In fact, in Galatians 1:1, Paul uses this preposition for BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father, "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by (διά) Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)", giving it the meaning of "with, together".

    The JW's have wilfully corrupted Revelation 3:14, so that they teach that Jesus Christ was the first to be created by God the Father. Jesus here speaks of Himself as, "the Beginning of the creation of God". In their NWT bible, they have it, "the beginning of the creation by God". Notice how they have corrupted it to read, "BY God", instead of what the Greek (του θεου) actually says, "OF God"! Their dishonesty can be seen from places like verse 1 in this chapter, where they have translated the same Greek, as "the seven spirits of God (του θεου)". WHY, here "OF God", but in verse 14, "BY God"? if not for their blasphemous teaching that Jesus is the first created by the Father? There is NO reliable, unbiased version in any langauge that would translate, Revelation 3:14, as "BY God", when the Greek is in the genitive, and has to read, "OF"! It is interesting that the Greek scholar, Dr J H Thayer, who himself was a Unitarian (anti Trinity), commenting on the Greek word for "beginning" in
    Revelation 3:14, had this to say, "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause" (Greek-English lexicon). At least Thayer is honest with the Greek here, even though he did not actually believe this, unlike the JW's!

    Likewise, in Colossians 1:15, the JW's have again corrupted the meaning of the term, "Firstborn", "πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως". The "First-born of all creation", does NOT mean that Jesus Christ is the "first-created", which in the first place, would require Paul to have used the correct Greek word, "πρωτοκτιστος", which mans, "firstcreated". "πρωτοτοκος", actually means, to have "Pre-eminance", over the whole of creation. As Paul says in verse 18, " that in all things (the universe)he might have the preeminence"! Jesus is also said to be the "πρωτοτοκος from the dead", in verse 18. Do the JW's take this to also mean, "first-created" from among the dead? In Psalm 89:27, God says of King David, "And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth". This is exactly what the term when used for Jesus Christ by Paul in Colossians 1:15, means!
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"?

    Decent.
     
  5. clarisaparis

    clarisaparis New Member

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    Wonderful treatment.
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    As uncreated God He is per Ephesians 3:9 KJV, John 1:3, and Colossians 1:16-17. If the Son is not that sole Creator there is no need for a Son who is God.
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I don't really know what you mean here? It is clear from passages like Genesis 1:26, where we read "let US make man in OUR image", means that MORE than One Person Created. Jesus Christ is indeed Creator, but, so is the Holy Spirit, "
    “The Spirit of God has made (Created) me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life" (Job 33:4). And The Father is also Creator, "For it was fitting that He, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Hebrews 2:10).

    Jesus Christ cannot be the SOLE Creator!
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Two things:
    1) Jesus Christ is not God apart from God the Father and the Holy Spirit. They being the one and the same God.
    2) If Jesus Christ is not sole Creator per John 1:3 or Colossians 1:16-17 then those passages are not true statements. Note 1)
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    answer to 1. Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, TOGETHER with The Father and Holy Spirit. Three distinct Persons, but ONE Godhead. They are the SAME God, but NOT the same Person.

    answer to 2, where exactly do you read in these passages, that Jesus Christ is the SOLE (only) Creator? Neither passage says this, because it is Biblically IMPOSSIBLE!
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Was not at issue.
    Hmm.
    John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." It sounds like an exclisive maker to me. That is a sole Creator. How dpes this not mean this? "παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν"
     
    #10 37818, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    if you are going to quote Greek, I would expect that you know what you quote? You will notice in the Greek you have given, "δι", this is the Greek preposition, with a meaning "THROUGH". The SAME Greek preposition is used for the Father in Hebrews 2:10, which is also referring to Creation. The same Greek preposition is also used in Galatians 1:1, for something that is JOINTLY of Jesus Christ, and the Father, and here has the meaning, "WITH". This is the meaning I believe in the Creation of the world. The Father Created WITH Jesus Christ, and WITH The Holy Spirit!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is the origin, source of all creation, and is chief in rank as being the Creator God Himself!
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    But NOT the ONLY Person in the Godhead that Created.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus as fully God would be in his own creation, but also existing apart and outside it also!
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Trinity was involved in creation as well as salvation!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    genesis has God the father and the Holy Spirit also involved!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. The Hebrew for "God", "Elohim" is masculine and plural, which I believe is the Tri-Personal God, "let US make man in OUR Image", etc, etc
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    3 separate Persons, correct?
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you agree with his point 1?
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Trying to get what MB means by how he views God in his nature as being 3 or 1!
     
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