1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The KJV: the word of God or the very wordS of God?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Spoudazo, Mar 7, 2005.

?
  1. The KJV is the/has the very wordS of God

    100.0%
  2. The KJV is the Word of God (doesn't necessarily mean other translations aren't)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +0
    Please answer the poll ;)
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,579
    Ratings:
    +22
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The KJV CANNOT be the very wordS of God, as He didn't speak to His prophets in English. He used whatever language(s) He'd assigned to each of His prophets.
     
  3. stevec

    stevec New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    105
    Ratings:
    +0
    Agreed!
     
  4. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ok, so [far] 4 voted for "wordS," now where are these people? [​IMG]
     
  5. Plain ol' Ralph

    Plain ol' Ralph New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    686
    Ratings:
    +0
    So God can't speak to anyone who knows only English??? [​IMG] :rolleyes: [​IMG] :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: [​IMG]
     
  6. Plain ol' Ralph

    Plain ol' Ralph New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    686
    Ratings:
    +0
    Agreed! </font>[/QUOTE]So what language does God then speak when he calls a man to preach???
     
  7. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +0
    Agreed! </font>[/QUOTE]So what language does God then speak when he calls a man to preach??? </font>[/QUOTE]He speaks to that man through whatever language he knows, through the Bible.
     
  8. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Ratings:
    +0
    I didn't vote. I feel this is a trap. This is the KJVO way of trying to force those of us who believe that other translations are legitimate to compromise our position on our beliefs in the "Word of God".

    IMHO the first answer is not defined well enough for me to answer honestly.

    Why? If it were to stand along, this guy says "The KJV is not the Words of God." I don't like the sound of it.

    I will only answer it if it is defined better.
    For instance:
    "The KJV is the very Words, word-for-word, period-for-period, comma-for-comma, etc. of God.

    I'm not falling for this little trap.
     
  9. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Ratings:
    +0
    By the way, I am NOT insulting those who voted number one. We all know exactly what you mean. But as obvious from POR's last post--it will be twisted around.
     
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Ratings:
    +0
    Honestly, he probabably doesn't use a language at all.

    He talks to the Spirit of man. How many here have heard God say "I want you to preach." though their EARS. Not many, I would say.

    Is he capable of this? Sure, does he do it. Probably not very often.

    Same thing with reading a translation. If the Holy Spirit helps you see things in the Bible, usually a light flicks on in your mind and you say. I get what He's trying to say. That makes sense. Did He clarify that passage in English. No, you read it in English and the Holy Spirit clarified it in your mind---even beyond the capability of English. At least that is the way it seems in my experience.

    Last Sunday we read a passage that I have read for years. All of a suddent I got a picture in my mind of how that verse fits with the rest of the Bible and God's message to man. The verse came from English, the clarification came in the form of an idea which was even difficult to put down in English. More of an internal UNDERSTANDING.
     
  11. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm the one that made the poll and I'm not KJV-only this *isn't* a trap at all.

    Some people I know of think it is wrong to change ANYTHING in the KJV.
     
  12. Scott J

    Scott J New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Ratings:
    +0
    So God can't speak to anyone who knows only English??? [​IMG] :rolleyes: [​IMG] :eek: :mad: :rolleyes: [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]So you are saying that God has spoken scripture through English speaking writers in the same way He did Moses, Matthew, and Paul?

    The "words" of the KJV are not the words of God. They are words chosen by Anglican scholars to translate an original language text of the Word of God. The TR is not the actual words of God either (word for word). It is a collated text from 6-10 differing, incomplete manuscripts plus some input from the Latin Vulgate by a noted RCC scholar.

    There is no evidence nor credible argument for the notion that either the KJV translators or Erasmus were directly inspired by God in the way the writers of the originals were.
     
  13. Scott J

    Scott J New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Ratings:
    +0
    The answer is very easy based on facts and scripture.

    The KJV is the Word of God.

    The words were not directly chosen by God anymore than the words of any other translation.
     
  14. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Ratings:
    +0
    This is from the KJV and was taken straight from the Vulgate because the Anglican translators did not have ANY Greek text containing this:

    "Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
    Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    16,337
    Ratings:
    +1,307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Mormons say that God spoke to Joseph Smith in English (KJV English at that) in the forest grove where he had his vision.

    HankD
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,464
    Ratings:
    +69
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My KJV1769 revision has 5000+ changes from the AV1611 and that doesn't include dropping the apocryphal books, typeface, punctuation or spelling!!

    If the AV1611 WAS the very "WORDS OF GOD", I am in deep doo-doo. And in danger of hell according to Rev 22 . .
     
  17. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Ratings:
    +0
    WHO made language?
    If God does NOT speak to you through Scripture using your OWN language then how on earth do you understand Him?
    Someone alluded to the fact that the Holy Spirit enlightens our understanding through Scripture. This is all well and good. But it begs the question, by WHAT language do you understand HIM?

    It is my understanding that this is ALSO what Paul was speaking about to the church at Corinth. If a man comes into your congregation but does not speak English and speaks of the things of God, how then can you "Amen" his words? He is to you but a barbarian. Your understanding is UNFRUITFUL. Our God makes things understandable in our OWN language. Hence, the apparent fact of His allowing translations in the first place. As the translators have said, (which you guys LOVE to quote), "They ARE the Kings WORDS be they in Spanish or English or French." (paraphrased)

    I personally think it is lacking in candor to say it is but a translation. Does this not reveal a certain double standard of the MV'ers' by quoting the AV translators for SOME things but discounting them for others while all the while hollering foul concerning certain extreme KJVo's double standards? Certainly it does. Just because God used certain Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic speaking folks to pen the words in the ifrst place, it does NOT follow that He stopped there.

    Additionally, to equivocate the Mormon doctrine with that of which we are speaking is IMO inflammatory, untrue, and unchristian. It is no more nor LESS evil than for certain KJVo's to say one cannot be saved except by the KJV. One ought to be very careful in one's words. It does not edify at all to say in effect, "Yer jes like dem dare Mormon's." What is that but an obvious joining with the accuser of the brethren? Isn't it the JW's who are always saying "The Greek here says blah blah blah"? Whether they are wrong in their interpretation or not, it does not help if I were to equate the Greek educated brethren here with the JW's based on a perceived "common" affinity for the Greek language. No, in fact all it does is expose my inadequacy, or perhaps unwillingness, to treat others as I would be treated.

    It is incomprehensible to me that one can say God does not speak in English, or French or even Cantonese for that matter. Be they in Spanish, Greek OR Hebrew, they are still God's words. NO MAN could come up with those words of truth on his own. Or for that matter, with the help of 4 dozen buddies!

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    16,337
    Ratings:
    +1,307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And this begs the question in what languages did He originally give His word?

    the prophets and apostles were the vehicles of inspiration not the KJV (or any Bible translators) translators.

    so is calling the NASB or NKJV "corrupt".

    HankD
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    16,337
    Ratings:
    +1,307
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What is untrue in this statement?

    HankD
     
  20. Scott J

    Scott J New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Ratings:
    +0
    It is incomprehensible to me that one could believe that a faithful translation into the English spoken today constitutes "changing God's Word". Go figure.
    Nope. Not God's words. God gave words once. He gave them through men meeting special qualifications. Translations and even copies in the original languages are the works of men. The originals were a direct work of God.
    Of course that isn't what we ask copyists, textual scholars, or translators to do.

    We ask them to use the best resources available and the best of their scholarship to faithfully represent the words of Truth that God delivered through the Prophets, holy men of old, and Apostles.

    It isn't necessary to recite someone's words verbatum to accurately express their "word". It isn't even necessary to use the same language to express their "word", Praise God. It is only necessary to express the same meaning as their words.

    The various translations and texts affirm one another's accuracy.
     
Loading...