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Featured The KJVO Movement Is Headed Down

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Jun 8, 2017.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    First, based on the information you have now supplied, your Pastor is not, in my opinion, a cloaked KJVO advocate.
    Second, your version of record walk back does not change my opinion in that regard. I will certainly agree, however, the KJV was the version of record.

    Have a nice day
     
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    I didn't walk anything back. I did however clearly define my usage of the term. And as I said before, I used the term only as it applied to my home church.
     
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Then my question to you is if the Lord called yo would you come to San Francisco and serve Him there?
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Someone needs to look up the meaning of "walk back."

    The idea is not that you changed your intended message, the idea is you said "A" but the receivers inferred "B" and so you walk back you original statement to make it less ambiguous or open to misinterpretation.
     
    #104 Van, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Of course.
     
  6. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Would San Francisco be considered today's Nineveh?
     
  7. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    After thinking through multiple angles on how to answer, all I can say is that that is a pretty profound question
     
  8. Glenn J. Kerr

    Glenn J. Kerr New Member

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    I would be interested in what you consider "the egregious errors in the TR." I am not saying there are none, far from it. But this is curiosity, and whatever they are, they are not as great as the egregious errors in the modern critical text, in my humble opinion. The greatest of these errors is consigning the last twelve verses of Mark to oblivion. I would call that error egregious.
     
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  9. Glenn J. Kerr

    Glenn J. Kerr New Member

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    If we are talking about the New Testament, this statement is correct. But the same cannot be said of the KJV Old Testament. The KJV Old Testament is not a good translation in much of the non-narrative portions. There has been an explosion of Hebrew knowledge through cognate language studies in the last 150 years that has left much of the KJV Old Testament behind in the dust. This is not a textual issue, but an issue of understanding Hebrew vocabulary and grammatical structure.

    I have done detailed studies of the two most difficult OT books, Job and Isaiah, and found that there is a clearly definable error in translation on the average of once every ten verses. Such an error ratio would never be acceptable in my work in Bible translation.
     
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I do not recall having the honor of discussing biblical views with you before. At the outset, even though I suspect we may disagree on many points, I believe we can share our views without the need to disparage those who hold differing views.

    Here is what I posted (#80)
    We agree (I hope) that all English translations have errors, some more than others. I think the NKJV has fewer errors than the KJV, but on occasion, the KJV rendering is more accurate than the NKJV.

    Now if the NKJV had corrected these four passages, in accordance with the accepted Byzantine Text, then it would be a much better translation. My preferred translation is the NASB95, but I am also a fan of the LEB. And if I am attempting to study a passage, I use the NET, WEB, NKJV and other versions (such as the NIV or KJV) for comparison purposes.

    This thread's topic is the status of the KJVO movement, with some saying it is growing weaker and smaller, and others (myself included) thinking it is just changing its name to KJVP. What do you say?
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Just about all modern versions have those 12 verses. They may be in italics, in smaller print and marked-off in some
    way --but they are there contrary to your contention that they are consigned to oblivion.
     
  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Seem to have a lot in common.
     
  13. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    As a local newspaper columnist once called the City "Baghdad by the Bay", I sometimes call it "Babylon by the Bay."
     
  14. Glenn J. Kerr

    Glenn J. Kerr New Member

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    I am new to this forum, and am just now finding the end of the thread of discussion. Please forgive me for replying to the first things I saw on the forum. In regard to the last twelve verses of Mark, perhaps the word "oblivion" is too strong, but in principle it is accurate, because the footnotes declare that these verses are not original. Most people I talk to discount them completely. So that is oblivion in their thinking at least.

    In regard to the theme of this thread, the KJVO movement is a matter of deep concern to me, and I think it is bound up almost inseparably to the textual question. From what I have seen, KJVO and KJVP are distinctly different. Most of the people I know who are KJVP are very clear that they are not KJVO and do not wish to be considered so. I have a friend who jokingly calls himself NKJV-only. In regard to the general theme of this thread, I do believe the KJVO movement is indeed dying, but slowly. Someone should do an index of KJVO publications to catalog how much and how often things are published. That would quantify the rise or decline of the movement. Are you familiar with Sproul's book on the movement, entitled "God's Word Preserved"?
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Most conservative New Testament scholars do not believe that those verses in question are authentic.
     
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Here is why the debate about versions is important: the results are carried out on the mission fields of the world. I take a stand on these issues because part of my job is training people to do Bible translation. In the light of that, this forum about translation is very important, especially when people write concerning methodology. Again, it is important to me that translators be qualified, so sometimes I write against the "wannabes" and fakes.

    Having said that, I would be perfectly happy if no other English translation was ever done. We have literally hundreds of those, yet there are still 1000's of languages which do not have the first word of Scripture translated.

    Concerning winning souls with the Living Bible, I agree that it can be done. I knew a missionary saved through that version. But wouldn't it be better after salvation to put a reliable copy of God's Word in the hands of the new convert, one he could trust and learn from rather than a paraphrase with terrible renderings in many places?
    What this says to me is that he went to the wrong seminary. I have several diplomas, and let me assure you, they stood me in great stead seeking to win souls on the mission field of Japan. (Granted, one of those diplomas is from a Japanese language school.)

    My son (he and I teach together in college and seminary) has a BA, MA, MDiv, and PhD in NT, but helps run the Jr High SS, teaches in training union, goes soul-winning twice every week, and will travel to teach in Kenya in Sept. You see, he got his degrees from good, Bible-believing schools where the profs were on fire for Christ. That is evidently where your Greek Dr. friend did not go, or he would have been better equipped to serve Christ.

    Ignorance is not a tool to better serve the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    #116 John of Japan, Jun 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
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  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Most church members are not concerned with their pastor's degrees, but with his leadership, teaching, and preaching ability.

    However, degrees are important for two reasons. They give a general understanding of the level of knowledge and preparation a person has, and thus how seriously he takes his ministry.

    And more importantly, degrees give us credibility with those outside the church. They open doors so we can reach those who may not, otherwise, be willing to listen to us.

    As Doc Clearwaters used to put it, "He whom God calls to preach, he first calls to prepare."
     
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  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Welcome to the Baptist Board, Dr. Kerr. I agree with you here. And there is plenty of evidence that the traditional ending should be in Mark, as you know. My son's doctoral adviser, Dr. David Alan Black, is an eclectic, but believes the longer ending to be genuine.

    I have not read Sproul's book, but obviously that would be a good one to read. I think we have it in our college library and have been planning to read it.

    Glad you agree with me that the KJVO movement is slowly dying.

    By the way, I have a thread in the "Evangelism, Missions & Witnessing Forum" about Bible translation ministries. My next post was going to be about Bibles International, but I would welcome you input there as being much better than what I might write.

    John R. Himes
     
  19. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    That is strange. In the New Testament survey text book he revised, orginal author is Thomas Lea, He states, "Of these two options, the better choice seems to be to conclude the Gospel at 16:8......addtional support for ending at 16:8 developed as students of Greek syntax found several examples of Greek sentences ending eith the term [gar]."

    He does say later, "A decision cannot be reached withbcertainy, but either the longer ending or ending at 16:8 are the most viable options." Here is was speaking against the lesser know short ending.

    Maybe he decided to leave Lea's orginal opinion out of respect and was not conveying his own opinion????


    The New Testament:
    2003
    p. 145-146


    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
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