The Line Between Faith and Patriotism

The latter part of what I said is what I was referring to . The United States has a history (speaking primarily of the 20th century) of treating combatants like we would like to be treated ourselves regardless of how they treated our troops or if they've signed the treaty. The treaty signed in Switzerland was to be a model of how civilized nations would war with each other. I say the United States has and will continue to set the example of a higher standard. Torture does not fall into that catagory.

That being said, it is more of a civic issue that spiritual. On the spiritual side Jesus would not want christians advocating torture.

 

And yet another vague reference with no substance to back it up.

 

In the interests of national security, such lofty ideals don't hold up to reality. You can't provide national security and lay down your weapons and expect your enemy to respect you. Sometimes you have to punch the playground bully for him to get the message after you turn the other cheek.

 

Vague referrence? World War II the Korean War? Pretty specific. Japan and Germany? THe United States has shown their soldiers more respect then they have shown ours.

And I'm not advocating not going to war. I'm advocating living by a higher standard.

and as far as high ideals. That's what God calls us to. "turn the other cheeck etc.." (not a vague referrence a quote from Jesus). I don't advocate that for national policy BTW but for christians.

 

First, those conflicts have no bearing on the current situation. We are not under any treaty with terrorists who aren't tied to any country. Second your vague references are to the supposed support from Jesus you cannot give scripture for.

 

I'm all for torture. Line them up every morning and bring out a hell fire and brimstone preacher full of the Spirit and power of God to preach the Word of God to them for at least an hour. They will either confess to what they know that could endanger us or confess to Christ and be converted. Either way, we win! Torture with real results!:applause:

 

Honestly would it really matter? I don't have my bible with me now. But I'll look it up for you and there are many. Should I use KJB or NIV? I'll have to send them after work since now I'm on my lunch break.

 

Sure it matters. If your going to take part in condemning other Christians then you should be willing to put in the work to do it with substance. Vague statements like "this is what Jesus wants" have no value. In the end your condemnation is empty rhetoric.

 

Mr

I'm really tired of people characterizing NBC, ABC, CNN, and CBS news as far left wing. Show me an example that demonstrates that allegation. The only really biased news I've ever seen was the early days of "fair and ballenced" news at FOX and now they've adjusted more to the middle. I presume they did this to speak more to the mainstream and less to the radical fringe.

 

Their support of the lies about the President. The support of homosexuality. The support of the 17 girls that got pregnant. Their failure to report on positive things going on in Iraq. I could go on. Fox hasn't moved. And I have little concern for your exhausted state on this issue. It has no bearing on it.

 

We have a good example for this. The Inquisition tested lots of interesting forms of torture. Are we proud of this period of Christian Church history?

 

I have never condemed other christians. I said I don't believe Jesus wants us to torture other people even in war. And when I get to a bible I will show you what exactly I mean:

 

C'mon BB, comparing what I suggested to the Inquisition!? :laugh: That's funny.

 

Just stop claiming scripture if you are not going to make theological case. You make this claim with no support. Brake out the scripture, make a case for its context and say something of substance.

As far as your clams of the President twisting facts to win support for the war in order to be consistent you need to include just about every liberal Democrat for the last 15 years, ( I can provide the quotes if you like) All of European intelligence as well as Israeli intelligence. The President was not a lone ranger in any of this. How convenient that is always forgotten.

 

I broke out some scripture. You haven't responded. You seem to be violently opposed to christians who are against torture. Hmmm. Interesting. Just for sake of the argument I'll repost the verses I quoted before. Explain how Jesus (scripturally) wants us to torture people. I hope these verses are specific enough for you.

BTW before you start jumping to conclusions about me I've served this country proudly in two conflicts.

 

I wasnt speaking to you nor did I see your post.

What I am opposed to is the characterizations that are unfounded such as this one. And the lack of substance in the midst of the mischaracterizations.

First, thank you for your service especially in the midst of conflict. Second the context of those verses are not war where the enemy is trying to commit mass murder. They do not apply to war or obtaining information from the enemy by means of sleep deprivation, loud music, or similar tactics. Where scripture is concerned context is King. The pharisees and saducees understood the word neighbor to only refer to fellow Jews and enemy to refer to gentiles. Christ was simply saying that neighbor extends to all men. The context here was not in reference to war and defense against mass attacks.

 

Is that your only source for news - Republican National Committee(RNC) TV, otherwise known as Fox News Channel?

 

As far as the OP is concerned, I think that this sentence, often attributed to Sinclair Lewis, is quite apropos:

"When fascism comes to America, it’ll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.”