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The Lost are able to Trust in Christ without supernatural alteration.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 16, 2024.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice? (Revelation 3:20, Joshua 24:15, Hebrews 3:7-8, 2 Corinthians 3:5)

    Rev 3:20
    ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

    Here the implication is some lost people are able to here the voice of Christ and affirmatively respond.

    Jos 24:15
    “But if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served, which were beyond the Euphrates River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    Here the ability to choose good or evil is presented, as well as that some choose good.

    Heb 3:7-8
    Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
    AS ON THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

    Here once again scripture proclaims some can hear the voice of God, and remain open to His words by not choosing to harden their hearts.

    2 Corinthians 3:5
    Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

    Here our post salvation adequacy to be effective ambassadors of Christ to lost humanity is proclaimed, thus our adequacy from God in our pre-salvation state to respond affirmatively to the milk of the gospel is suggested.

    Bottom line: Our scripture indicates the lost have the capacity to hear and affirmatively respond to God's fundamental revelations, the milk of the gospel.
     
  2. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    This is the opening line used in Edwards' sermon : A Divine and Supernatural Light Immediately Imparted to the Soul by the Spirit of God, Shown to be Both a Scriptural and Rational Doctrine

    If you're serious, I'd recommend reading it because it brings in scriptures, explains the difference between common and special grace, and the role of naturally acquired knowledge as opposed to "light" directly imparted by God. It's worth the effort to read this because he gives the rationality of his position and doesn't just sling verses as often happens.

    Edwards is more interested in this sermon in describing how the Spirit works than in making the case that it is impossible for a person to be saved by hearing the word only. Surprisingly, elsewhere, he says "Yet how few there are who are effectually wrought upon by the word of God! They are very thinly sown; there is but here and there one."

    So he seems to be saying that while it may be possible for someone to hear and believe yet how does it normally happen. Does God choose to use the method of laying out the information or the propositions of the gospel and then leave it up to man to respond or not, as he wills on his own? I say no.
     
  3. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God does at times reveal His truths to people using dreams, visions and means other than through what He has made and those believers who witness for Him. But Matthew 16:17 does not say, nor suggest that Peter was supernaturally enabled to grasp the revelation of God.

    Yes God is the ultimate source of His revelation, but again no evidence in scripture exists to support His revelation requires supernatural enablement to grasp its fundamental truth, the milk of the gospel.

    Finally your view that God predetermines who will fully embrace the gospel has no basis in scripture. God sets before us a choice, and if He had determined what we will choose, that is not a choice. Thus the doctrine of total spiritual inability is unbiblical.
     
  5. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    Apologies for my blank post. I can't remember what I had intended to write, and now my message has no "delete" option.
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Scripture says yes, many seek the narrow path that leads to life, but few find it. Not "only a few are enabled so as to allow them to find it." See Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:14
     
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    People seek the path to life in many ways and it's "in" now to say something like "there are many paths going up the mountain but they all lead to the same summit". No, they don't, and Jesus said so. Jesus himself said he was the way, the truth, and the life. The passages you mentioned are about that, not whether or to what extent the Holy Spirit helps or causes someone to look for the narrow gate.

    But you do bring up a good point. I am not saying that God is shooting out lightening bolts and hitting select people who are infallibly saved and leaving others to be infallibly lost. The process of the enlightening and conviction that leads someone to salvation varies between individuals, can occur instantly or over time, and always involves the conscious rational thought processes of the person. I know there are Calvinists on here that don't believe that but I am not defending their theological methods. But what I am describing is described in detail by Jonathan Edwards and others, for what that is worth.

    I agree with you that we are able to understand the facts about the work of Christ and the state of our condition, enough to render us without excuse and guilty, by our natural intellect. Where we have trouble is that we don't like what we hear, or put it off, or think it's foolishness, or we just get sidetracked with other things or we don't desire to have our plans and pleasures interfered with. I believe you can be in such a state, and unable (as well as unwilling) to respond to the gospel, and yet it is indeed your fault that you don't. The Holy Spirit is necessary in those cases to enlighten or draw you or you will not choose to come.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol:

    48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but you cannot claim we are unwilling and unable to respond to the gospel and claim we are without excuse. Those that reject the gospel are indeed without excuse. But not everyone is unable to receive the gospel, as in fact three of the four soils, categories of people, were able to accept it. Matthew 13.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    You have posted this before and I have fully rebutted your (Calvinist) interpretation. But rather than address the rebuttal, you simply repeat your bogus claim over and over.

    As many as took Paul's direction to eternal life believed. "Tasso" means in this usage to agree by mutual consent.
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Only in your imagination.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Taint sol, taint so, but no rebuttal for the actual meaning of tasso, i.e. mutual consent. The lexicons are cf aimed to be only in my imagination. Go figure!!
     
  13. Judith

    Judith Well-Known Member
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    "Does scripture say no one would ever make the right choice unless God supernaturally intervened and caused that choice?"
    The answer is yes scripture teaches that it takes a supernatural work of God before anyone can be saved.
    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    No one has ever turned to God only by their own volition and no one has ever turned to God without exercising their volition. God draws, and man exercises his volition to accept. If a person is not drawn by God they will never accept Him on their own.
     
    #13 Judith, Jun 22, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2024
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