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Featured The message of reconciliation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Sep 19, 2020.

  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    Verse 8 explains that Jesus died for sinners . So that's everyone without exception.

    Verse 9 explains that ' much more ' than Jesus dying for everyone's sins ( without exception ) after we believed we were justified by his blood and we will never fall under his wrath now ( through him )

    Verse 10 For if when we( Every sinner without exception) were enemies ,every one without exception was reconciled to God by the death of his Son . Much more because everyone without exception was reconciled they will be reconciled because of his life ( resurrection) . So if they believe the Gospel they will be saved by his life .

    Verse 11 explains that even though everyone without exception was reconciled by his death , to be saved by his life they need to recieve the atonement.

    2cor 5 .19
    17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20¶Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    verse 18 explains that we as believers( because we believed )we are reconciled by his death AND his life . We have been committed to understand this correctly so we can tell this good news to others.

    Verse 19 Futher explains that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself NOT imputing everyones ( everyone without exception) trespasses against them . Jesus truly died and paid for the sins of the world ( everyone without exception)

    This all means that no one will be in hell ' paying for their own sins ' . They will be in hell because they refused to believe the truth so as to be saved .

    It means that we were not saved by the ' death of christ ' but by his life ( resurrection) . Of course it goes without saying that without his death we could not be saved . Therefore we needed the death ( justified by his blood ) burial and resurrection (much more saved by his life )

    No this isn't ' universalism ' Just because Jesus paid for all and everyone's sins ( including the sin of unbelief) no one can be saved without ( his life ) glorification. We received Jesus when we believed. John 1.12 . We recieved the atonement. because by faith we accessed the grace . Rom 5.2
    By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Not only that . We are now predestined to future redemption of the body .
    23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    After we believed we were sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Eph 1.13-14 . Eph 4.30
    This means we cannot be lost or forfeit salvation. Eternal security rest on the promises of God . The guarantee of the Holy Spirit and God who ' predestines all believers to Guaranteed future glorification. Not before we were born ( to be saved ) but after we recieved the Holy Spirit.

    This is the message of reconciliation.
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    Where is the "all" in this passage?
    According to the verses posted by the OP, who received the atonement? Was it universally all/every human being, or was it "we" whom God caused to believe?

    Let the reader of the passage observe and decide.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Obviously it was the justified elect in view.Rom5:1

    When people cannot read this passage correctly, there is no chance they are gonna get right or even be able to discuss bible doctrine.
     
    #3 Iconoclast, Sep 19, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Galations 2.20
    20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me .
    By the same logic, Jesus only died for Paul then? Hands up who's not a sinner ?
    ( negative inference fallacy)
     
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Whats the ' therefore ' there for ?
    the previous verses in Chapter 4
    18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
    20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    23¶Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
    25Who was delivered for our offences ( everyone without exception) and was raised again for our justification.( everyone without exception) Not that everyone was justifed when he was raised but that because of the resurrection, all those that believe can be justified.( verse 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;)
    verse 6 Rom 5. ¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly .That is clearly everyone without exception.
     
    #5 Barry Johnson, Sep 20, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2020
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    yes,therefore in light on what he spoke of in chapter4....being justified WE have peace with God.
    The unsaved do not have peace with God...Austin provided the context of WE,US,throughout the passage of the elect being saved.
    You have employed several "fallacies "
    The make it up as I go fallacy,
    The I have no clue fallacy.
    The any objection to truth will do fallacy.
    The any excuse under the sun fallacy.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Barry, we have already gone over this. You are really struggling with comprehension of God's word. I pray God brings light to your eyes as you let go of your presuppositions and observe the whole of what God says. At present you are ignoring context, which causes you to misunderstand.
     
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  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Yes BEING justified which is by faith then we have peace with God . how has anything I said contradict that ? Read carefully. Yes Calvinists is a ' me ' centred system . A little like the Pentecostal s who insert them selves into every other verse . The ' we ' and the ' us ' is the same as when Paul says ' for me ' in Galations 2.20 .20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me .
    We don't think " oh wow, Jesus only died for Paul " .
     
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Bluster and waffle.
     
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Barry, you are willfully ignorant of Reformed theology and you persist it presenting your ignorant view. As such it is worthless to continue addressing you as you are intent on remaining ignorant.
    I read scripture very carefully and observe what scripture says. You consistently refuse to do the same. May God remove the obstacle to your understanding.
     
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  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Still waiting for verses that refute my op ?
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Already provided and rejected by you.
    Barry, when the only person liking your theology is MB and even the other synergists are silent, you should take note.
    You have been thoroughly refuted in this thread. Keep living in ignorance if you wish.
     
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  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The only response I've had is th
    I'm not expecting those that are reformed in thinking( theology that is calvinist thinking and wrong for the same reasons calvinism is wrong ) to agree . I'm not new to this confrontation from certain denominations .
     
  14. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    You say ///Where is the "all" in this passage?
    According to the verses posted by the OP, who received the atonement? Was it universally all/every human being, or was it "we" whom God caused to believe?// You clearly have not read properly what i wrote . I do say or imply that everyone has RECIEVED the atonement. I carefully distinguish between those God has reconciled in the sense of their sins and those that ARE reconciled in the sense of RECEIVING the atonement through faith .( b)
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, ( a) much more, being reconciled ( b ) , we shall be saved by his life.
    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have NOW received the atonement.
    No calvinst is ever taught how we are saved . Notice its Jesus, s LIFE .
     
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    There are very few Churches that have not been permeated by Calvinistic thinking, so I'm not surprised if very few on here agree .
     
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    14¶For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; ( reconciled the world to himself )
    15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;( reconciled the world)
    16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: ( reconciled)
    Col 2
    Reconciled.

    13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You made a big deal over vs 6..Christ died for the ungodly.
    All elected persons are ungodly,the are not elected because they are godly.
    That is what the verse teaches.
    The whole chapter is about the justified elect, who now have peace with God.
    Look at every verse.
    The love of God is shed abroad in OUR HEARTS BY THE HOLY GHOST WHO IS GIVEN UNTO US.
    The unsaved world do not have the Holy Spirit.
    Austin has tried to help you, you resist at your own peril.
     
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  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    This is a perfect example that for calvinism the issue is scriptural authority. The clear reading of the text is forsaken to fit the paradigm . That explanation is no different to . " Mary is Jesus ,s mother . Jesus is God therefore Mary is the Mother of God "
    Welcome to Calvinsim , syllogism abounds.
     
  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    All elected persons are ungodly ? verse please ?
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    There's two verses .1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    notice the past tense ' we have ' and ' now justified ' . This is after believing.
     
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