Featured The Most Powerful Christian Song I Had Never Heard

Did you miss the part where all the musicians have stopped playing and those in attendance are all continuing to sing the song?

Even if this part did not make it so clear that the audience was not merely passively watching (which I agree would not be worship), why would you assume that they were not also singing and engaging with the meaning of the words (which are right out of Scripture) in their hearts and minds?

Watching a Youtube video can be worship if you are truly engaged in adoring God and expressing praise to Him as you watch it.

 

I'm confused. The first sentence above is referring to the song Agnus Dei performed by Michael Smith, which I posted above. I would think that the second sentence, lacking any indication of a change in reference, is referring to the same song. You say it "had no mention of Jesus". But that's why I'm confused. The entire song is a worship song to Jesus, focused on Him. And it is based on Scripture. Is the second sentence referring to Agnus Dei or the song in the OP, Clear the Stage?

 

Thank you for sharing the article on worship and what a worship leader should be. I noticed that the song I shared in the OP reflects some of this same thinking with the lines:

'cause you can sing all you want to
Yes, you can sing all you want to
You can sing all you want to
And still get it wrong; worship is more than a song​

 

That is indeed a beautiful and powerful worship song. Thank you for sharing it!

 

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus explains that some of the commandments have much broader and deeper application than most people realize.

So, with respect to adultery, Jesus shows us that it is not only actually having a physical act of sex with someone other than our spouse that we should be guard against. Actual acts of sex with another person's spouse are of course very serious and terrible sins, but adultery is broader and deeper than the sex act. Jesus shows us that looking with lust reveals adultery in our hearts (see Matthew 5:28).

Likewise, Jesus reveals that the commandment "do not murder" should be understood to mean that we should not be angry at our brother (see Matthew 5:21-22).

While Jesus does not go on to address the broader of deeper meaning and application of the other commandments, many (including myself) have felt that it is right to carefully look at the other commandments and see if they, too, have broader and deeper meaning and application.

I think we can and should treat the first two commandments (which relate to idolatry) in this way:

"You shall have no other gods before me.
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, (Exod. 20:3-5a ESV)

In these commands we can already see how they point to broader and deeper applications than bowing to a statue or figure, as terrible as that physical act is.

I believe that if we treat anything or anyone in a way which allows them to take the rightful place of God in our affections, obedience, priorities, or service, we are violating these commands. I think it is right to view idolatry in this way.

Like the Apostle Paul, you have been righteously provoked by seeing the foolishness and evil of idols and false religion on a massive and pervasive scale:

Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. (Acts 17:16 ESV)

But while idolatry is not as obvious here in America, it is nevertheless pervasive.

Yes, merely watching someone else sing is not worship. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise in this thread, but thank you for reminding us. The song in the OP makes the same point.

Of course, if someone is watching someone else sing while they themselves also sing and pray and think about the meaning, that becomes worship.

I don't think Paul is using idolatry as a metaphor. Rather, I think Paul views coveting as a type of non-physical idolatry in Col 3:5 (and one very similar verse in Ephesians):

ESV Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

ESV Ephesians 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

There is another passage which to me also indicates a broader and deeper meaning of idolatry which is consistent with the one I mentioned above:

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

John has not mentioned physical idols anywhere in 1 John, but his final exhortation is "keep yourselves from idols". He has mentioned false religion and false beliefs. And in the immediate context, John has just pointed out that Jesus is the true God.

To me this suggests that treating anyone or anything other than Jesus as our "Lord" or our "Savior" should be viewed as a type of "heart idolatry".

Yes, the Bible is our authority. It is God's Word.

But, God does use other people to help us understand and apply His Word.

There are certainly bad examples of "worship" which really are just "entertainment". But I have been blessed to know some "worship leaders" who truly understand worship and whose passionate desire was not to entertain but to lead people in adoring and praising God. These leaders are grieved when they see members of the church who appear to be not engaged in worship, but just passively watching (but they also understand that we cannot see into people's hearts and that some who appear "passive" may in fact be engaging with God in a quiet way not visibly obvious to others). These leaders also understood that music, which is their special area of service, is only one small part of worship and is not worship at all if a person's heart and life are not oriented towards God.

Grace and Peace, Mark

 

I'm pretty sure we both agree with this:
All singing is not worship and all worship is not singing.

I haven't said otherwise.

Thanks for your encouragement. Although I don't feel I can commit the time for a truly intensive study of worship throughout the Bible, I did look through all the uses of the two words you mentioned in the NT, and a sampling of them in the LXX.

I'll share some thoughts more directly related to our discussion below, but two things jumped out at me:

1. The root meaning of the Greek word most commonly translated "worship" (proskuneo) is to "bow down" (as you correctly shared). This element of meaning is explicitly present in many of the uses of the word "worship". I feel that many of our Baptist churches may be missing something because we rarely have settings where we physically bow down before God. Of course, our heart attitude is far more important than our physical position. Still, there is something about the physical position of bowing on the floor which helps us feel and show our relationship to God.
2. Associated with the bowing, it seems that the root idea of worship is something close to this:
a. A recognition through words and actions that God is in authority over us and that we are willingly submitting to Him.
b. A joyful realization and proclamation that God is worthy to be in the position of authority He has because of who He is and because of His power, holiness, love, and other attributes.

I agree! The type of singing described in Col 3:16, both to "one another", and "with grace in your hearts to the Lord", is worship.

I feel that you are defining the meaning of worship too narrowly. Thankfully, we have a concrete example in the video with the song Agnus Dei. If I understand you correctly you are saying that the people singing in that video may be praising God, but they are not worshiping Him. But consider this example of worship from the Bible:

the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." (Rev. 4:10-11 ESV)

Here, the worship includes adoration and praise to God. This text does not say that they were singing, but I can't see how adding music would make similar words of adoration and praise cease to be worship.

Here's one more example:

And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign.

I think it is right to say that the people in the video were worshiping.

 

John, I feel like you have likely misinterpreted the authors intention when he wrote "Jerk the pews and all the decorations, too, Until the congregations few, then have revival".

The song uses a lot of poetic and metaphorical language, including hyperbole. For example, I seriously doubt the song's author is advising that we literally burn the sound and lights in the two lines before the one you quoted:

Clear the stage and set the sound and lights ablaze
If that's the measure you must take to crush the idols
Jerk the pews & all the decorations, too
Until the congregations few, then have revival​

What might the author mean then? In the context of this song, I think he is saying that we should do whatever it takes to get rid of anything in our life that is interfering with us loving, serving, and following God. It's unlikely this will literally involve removing the pews from the church, much less the people. Although it might involve making some changes which might cause some people to leave the church. His point is, whatever it takes, it is worth it in order to experience God more fully. And sometimes "trimming" does come before new growth and fruit.

Perhaps the song's author was influenced by similar "do whatever it takes" language that Jesus used:

ESV Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

If someone reading this hasn't listened to the song, or if you listened to it a while ago and don't remember all of it well, I encourage you to listen again and see if my interpretation makes sense. For convenience I will repost it here:

 

I feel like our discussion is a positive example that it is actually possible to make progress in understanding in these forum discussions. At least I hope and pray that it actually true, and not merely my optimistic feelings.

I want to narrow down to your last statement:

In the first passage about "worship" I agree that your interpretation is grammatically possible. Here it is:

the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." (Rev. 4:10-11 ESV)

BGT Revelation 4:10 πεσοῦνται οἱ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι ἐνώπιον τοῦ καθημένου ἐπὶ τοῦ θρόνου καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν τῷ ζῶντι εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων καὶ βαλοῦσιν τοὺς στεφάνους αὐτῶν ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου λέγοντες· 11 ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν, λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν, ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν.

Three verbs are highlighted in blue. The first two, "worship" and "cast" are in the indicative mood. "Saying" is a present participle. It seems to me that it is an adverbial participle and tells us what the elders were doing while they were casting down their crowns. It could also be telling us what they were doing while they were worshiping, but this is not certain.

Here's the other passage:

NIV Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

BGT Revelation 11:16 Καὶ οἱ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι [οἱ] ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καθήμενοι ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους αὐτῶν ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ τὰ πρόσωπα αὐτῶν καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θεῷ 17 λέγοντες· εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι, κύριε ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν, ὅτι εἴληφας τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας.

Again, "worshiped" is in the indicative mood, while "saying" is a present participle. This mostly likely indicates that the "saying" was part of the worshiping. It was part of how they worshiped (an adverbial participle indicating means). It was what they were doing as part of their worshiping. This interpretation fits both grammatically and contextually. I'm not saying it HAS to mean this, I'm saying this meaning fits well.

One last note in this comment. I honestly appreciate your passion for precision. God's Word is important. And that means the original languages are important. But it's also important to remember how our words will likely be interpreted by people who just know English. It might have helped if early on you had said something like, "The people in this video appear to be truly praising the Lord and that is a good and valuable activity, but according the Greek word most commonly translated "worship", they are not worshiping because they are not physically bowing down." I say this because many English readers would interpret a statement like "they are not worshiping" (not an exact quote) to be a criticism of them and of the video rather than a point about the difference between "worship" and "praise" based on the Greek text which has been mostly lost in English usage. Does that make sense?

Grace and Peace, Mark