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The Mystery of The God-Christ - 1

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    “τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν ᾧ εἰσιν πάντες οἱ θησαυροὶ τῆς σοφίας καὶ τῆς γνωσέως ἀπόκρυφοι” (Colossians 2:2c-3)

    “the Mystery of the God Christ in Whom is all the treasures of the wisdom and the knowledge hidden”

    This reading as now found in the majority of Versions of the New Testament, is no doubt the original as written by the Apostle Paul. Over the years this was amended many times, so as to try to confuse what Paul had written. The ending of verse 2 can be used as a good example for those who are students of textual studies. I will give the variant readings for those who, like myself, are interested in this very important line of studies.

    τοῦ θεοῦ, Χριστοῦ] p46 B vgms Hilary Pelagius Ps-Jerome WH NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM

    τοῦ θεοῦ] D1 H P 6 424c 436* 1881 1912 2464 copsa(ms)

    τοῦ Χριστοῦ] 81 1241 (1739 omit τοῦ) pc itb Euthalius (Fulgentius)

    τοῦ θεοῦ, ὃ ἐστιν Χριστός] D* itar itd ite ito itx (eth) vgmss Ephraem Augustine1/2 (Augustine1/2) Varimadum Vigilius

    τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἐν Χριστῷ] 33 (Clement) Ambrosiaster

    τοῦ θεοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ Χριστοῦ] (א* 048 πατρὸς Χριστοῦ) A C 0150 1175 pc l596 (itdiv Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) (itc itf itz vgww copsa(mss) Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ) (itmon κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) (vgst) (vgmss) copbo (Ambrose) Ps-Jerome

    τοῦ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ] arm

    τοῦ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ] 075 0208 459 1908 (l809* (itdem κυρίου ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ) (vgcl Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) (vgmss) syrp Chrysostom (Severian) (Pelagius) Theodorelat Cyril omit πατρὸς) (Cassiodorus)

    τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς τοῦ Χριστοῦ] א2 L Ψ 256 263 365 945 1319 1573 1962 1984 1985 2127 l422 l593 l603 l809c l1153 vgms syrh geo2 slav

    τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ] D2 K L (88 καὶ τοῦ πατρὸς) 104 181 326 330 424* 436c 451 614 (629 Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ) 630 1852 1877 (2200 πνεύματος for πατρὸς) 2492 2495 Byz Lect (l1154 καὶ Χριστοῦ) syrh* Theodoret John-Damascus ς ND Dio

    The first reading has the strongest textual support, and the basis of most of the modern Versions. In the original Greek text and manuscripts, there were no punctuation marks, so Paul would have written, “τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ”, with no comma. There is much dispute on exactly what Paul meant by these words, and as can be seen from the array of variant readings, they have been “explained” in various ways, by additions and even the simplest reading of, “τοῦ θεοῦ” (of God).

    Now that the first reading has been accepted by the greater majority of New Testament Versions, in different languages, it is important to establish, the best that we can, what Paul does mean here. Does Paul, with many commentators, make “Χριστοῦ” (Christ), as an apposition to “τοῦ μυστηρίου” (the Mystery); or to “τοῦ θεοῦ” (the God)?. For starters, had Paul written “Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”, as in “the Mystery of the Jesus Christ”, there would be no difficulty as some cause, by taking “Χριστοῦ”, as apposition with “Ἰησοῦ”. Or, even if Paul had written “κυρίου Χριστοῦ”, as in “the Mystery of the Lord Christ”, there would have been no objections raised by anyone as to what Paul wrote, or meant. I might add another here, had Paul written, “τοῦ μυστηρίου θεοῦ Χριστοῦ”, where he does not use the Greek article, “τοῦ” with “θεοῦ”, this would have made it simpler for those who (even sadly some “Evangelicals”) see Jesus Christ as in some way “subordinate” to God the Father, as they will argue that the definite article “τοῦ” is not used by Paul, which they wrongly assume, means that Paul does not mean that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, in exactly the same way as the Father is.

    As I said, some Evangelicals have tried to explain what Paul means when he wrote, “τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ”. Dr Bob Utley, in his commentary on this verse, says this, “There are several Greek manuscript variations. The unusual syntax of P46, "of God, of Christ," best explains the origin of all the other variations”. Both “θεοῦ”, and “Χριστοῦ”, are in the genitive, and Dr Utley here has made this to refer to two, rather than one Person, “the mystery of God, of Christ”, where he takes “θεοῦ”, as apposition with “τοῦ μυστηρίου”. This can further be seen from his comments on the next verse, “It is grammatically possible that this opening phrase is neuter ("in it"), not masculine ("in whom") and therefore, refers to the mystery”. In response to Dr Bob Utley’s comments, we can go to Galatians 1:3, where Paul says, “χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος και κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου”. Do we here render the English as “Grace to you and peace from of God of Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ”? In which case there is no need for Paul to have used the Greek preposition, “απο”, at this place. Or, shall we say, “from God of Father”? This is what James Dunn has to say, “The awkward insertion of "Christ" at the end of 2:2 has the effect (no doubt deliberate) of focusing attention back onto Christ, thus introducing what is a very tight and effective summary of the main emphases of the distinctive christology so far put forward in the letter” (James Dunn; NIGTC, on ver 3). Why does he say “The awkward insertion of "Christ"”? In what way is Paul’s use of “Χριστοῦ”, “awkward”? The German New Testament scholar, Dr Ernst Lohmeyer, had another “solution” for this, by suggesting that “Χριστοῦ”, was an “early gloss”, that is to say, did not form part of the original writing of Paul. Since the earliest textual evidence has the word, Dr Lohmeyer is also merely speculating.

    Are these commentators correct in their conclusions on this? I have already said, that, had Paul written “Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ”, or “κυρίου Χριστοῦ”, no one would have suggested that either “Ἰησοῦ”, or “κυρίου”, were apposition with “τοῦ μυστηρίου”. But, because Paul wrote “τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ”, and especially by using the definite article in the Greek, “τοῦ”. The natural way to understand what Paul meant, that “Χριστοῦ”, is apposition with “τοῦ θεοῦ”, has raised issues for some. Had Paul wished to show that “Χριστός”, Christ, is “τοῦ μυστηρίου”, Mystery, then surely he would had written, “τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ θεοῦ, ὃ ἐστιν Χριστός”, the Mystery of the God, which is Christ”, where it would be abundantly clear, that “Χριστός” is in apposition with “τοῦ μυστηρίου”, and not, “τοῦ θεοῦ”. Bishop J B Lightfoot, who was a first class Bible scholar, who wrote some great commentaries, had this to say on this passage, “τοῦ μυστηρίου κ.τ.λ.] ‘the mystery of God, even Christ in whom, etc.,’ Χριστοῦ being in apposition with τοῦ μυστηρίου; comp. 1:27 τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου … ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν”. He, like Dr Utley, mistakenly make “Χριστοῦ being in apposition with τοῦ μυστηρίου”, and not “τοῦ θεοῦ”. Dr Lightfoot appeals to Colossians 1:27, to show his justification for his position. However, this very example shows that he is wrong! Paul here writes, “τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου … ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν”, where the fact, that he uses “ὅ ἐστιν”, (which is), is clear that he means “Christ” to be in apposition with “Mystery”! However, Paul does not do so in Colossians 2:2, even though there is some textual evidence above, to say that this reading was around in the 5th or 6th century.

    There is no, grammatical, contextual, or theological objection, for Paul here to call Jesus Christ, “the God Christ”, or, “the God-Christ”. Also, in the following verse, Dr Utley and others are wrong, when the suppose, that “εν ω”, is in the neuter (in which), thus agreeing with “τοῦ μυστηρίου”; and not masculine, “in Who”, and referring to “the God-Christ”. I am not dealing with conjecture or supposition, but fact, when I say that these words are referring to Jesus Christ, as Almighty God. As I have said before, punctuation and verse and chapter divisions are a later addition to the Greek text, and were never part of the original writings. After Paul writes “εν ω”, he goes on to say, “εισιν παντες οι θησαυροι της σοφιας και της γνωσεως αποκρυφοι”, that is, in whom are all the treasures of the wisdom and the knowledge hid) which beyond any doubt, is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ! Note the Greek article “της” repeated here, that the meaning is, ALL THE Wisdom and ALL THE Knowledge, is to be found in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. He IS the “font” of ALL Knowledge and Wisdom. These are attributes of Almighty God ALONE! It is more than absurd, to accept that all of this would have been written by the great Apostle Paul, to refer to “the Mystery”, and not to the Lord Jesus Christ!

    Just a few verses later in this same chapter of Colossians, Paul goes on to say of The Lord Jesus Christ: “χριστον οτι εν αυτω κατοικει παν το πληρωμα της θεοτητος σωματικως” (8c-9), that is, “Christ, because in Him dwells the fullness of the Divinity Bodily” On Paul’s use of “θεοτητος”, the Unitarian Greek scholar, Joseph Thayer, in his lexicon says, “deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9”. Not, “a god”, or “divine” but 100%, completely ALMIGHTY GOD! This verse, like verse 2, shows that the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Who IS eternally Almighty God, at His Incarnation, became THE God-Man, and IS still as God-Man, even now in heaven.
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Which version is that? I did not find that reading in any of the English versions on Bible Gateway. Thanks.
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    It is the Greek text behind the majority of versions (τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ), though most are not literal, like the NIV, "the mystery of God, namely, Christ", where they have added "namely", and punctuation, which is not in the original. Others, like the ESV, "God’s mystery, which is Christ"; NLT "God’s mysterious plan, which is Christ himself"; NASB, "God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself" have paraphrased the Greek. The KJV, NKJV, Douay-Rheims, Webster, Youngs, are based on the Greek "τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ", which is in much later Greek manuscripts, and other textual evidence. This is also used by Robinson-Pierpont in their Byzantine Textform. The ISV follows the shortest reading, "τοῦ θεοῦ". The Greek τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ, is literally, "the God Christ (or, God-Christ)", where "Christ" is in apposition with "God", and not "Mystery". If Paul would have meant the latter, then he would have used "ὃ ἐστιν", as found in some textual evidence, "τοῦ θεοῦ ὃ ἐστιν Χριστός" (The God which [mystery] is Christ), which is what the ESV would require.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    . . . εις επιγνωσιν του μυστηριου του θεου χριστου
    Literally -
    . . . into knowledge of the mystery of the God of Christ.
    The reading based on a 3% of the manuscript evidence.

    Now the Majority Text reading is based on 79.6% of the manuscript evidence.
    . . . εις επιγνωσιν του μυστηριου του θεου και πατρος και του χριστου.
    Literally -
    . . . into knowledge of the mystery of the God and Father and of the Christ.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    wrong! the apposition is between χριστου, Who is the subject, and θεου. and not between θεου and του μυστηριου, as θεου is not the subject here. Note verse 3, "ἐν ᾧ", "in Who", which is related to χριστου, and not του μυστηριου. Hence the only way that Paul can be understood here, is "the God Christ". Just as Paul says in Galatians 1:3, "“χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος και κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου”, according to your rendering of Colossians 2:2, we must here read, "from of God of Father", which is nonsensical! Further, there is no "Mystery" of God the Father, but Jesus, like Paul says in 1:27, "τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου … ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν”, but here Paul uses ὅ ἐστιν. Likewise, in 1 Timothy 3:16, again Paul says of Jesus, not the Father, "και ομολογουμενως μεγα εστιν το της ευσεβειας μυστηριον θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι". No where in the NT is the Father called "του μυστηριου", but of Jesus, a few times!"
     
    #5 SavedByGrace, Nov 27, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    χριστου translates as "of Christ."
    θεου in the text is του θεου which translates as "of the God."
     
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    It appeared to me that you were saying that the English above that sentence was what was in the majority of (English) Versions of the New Testament. I take it from your explanation then that you rather meant the majority of English translations are based on the Greek text you gave above that. Thanks.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    του θεου χριστου translates "of the God Christ", not "of the God of Christ", as in Galatians 1:3, "απο θεου πατρος", "from God the Father", not, "from of God of the Father". I will not respond to any more on this, because you don't undersatnd what I have written, and I have very clearly explained this in the OP and elsewhere.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I see what you mean now, apologies for any confusion, and thanks for pointing this out
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So based on that. του θεου χριστου, "of the God the Christ."
    BTW the ASV has, ". . . of God, *[even] Christ, . . ."
    The RSV του μυστηριου του θεου χριστου as "of God's mystery, of Christ, . . ."
    *The ASV footnote "The ancient authorities vary much in the text of this passage."

    [That passage 3%] Those other authorities to be 97% of those manuscripts.
     
    #10 37818, Nov 27, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that you really understand textual studies! the 97% can well be COPIES of just ONE Greek manuscript, which in itself could have a corrupt reading. Then, what you will have, is 96.9% of manuscripts, that are the same as the corrupt one!. This way of doing textual studies is dumb!
     
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Could G1:3 read ? - Grace to you and peace from of father, God and of master of us, Jesus Christ.

    Should those, of V 3 be understood any differently from those, of verse 1? And would V 3, I posted equal V 1?Consider Acts 2:32-36; Did He of 32,33 actually do what is stated in V 36, hath made, relative to your thoughts on Col. 2:2

    No wonder the word mystery is used.
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Greek text reads, "χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη απο θεου πατρος και κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου". Into literal English it will read, "Grace to you and peace from God Father and our Lord Jesus Christ" What you are suggesting is to change the word order, ""from of Father, God". It can read, "from of God of Father", but this is harsh in English, and has no sense. Verse 1 is, "δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος", literally, "through Jesus Christ and God Father", where we have the one Greek preposition, "δια", used for both Persons. In this case, the meaning goes back to its root, "with", rather than "through". I am not sure what you are getting at from Acts 2?
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The text that most modern translations use, Colossians 2:2c, is still only a few mss. [3%]. Your reading of that text is not the typical translation for that text. RSV NASB ESV CSB NRSV
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The following Greek texts, have the reading, “τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ”

    Lachmann, Novum Testamentum Graece et Latine. 1850

    Tischendorf, Novum Testamentum Graece. 1872

    Tregells, The Greek New Testament. 1879

    Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek. 1881

    Eberhard Nestle, Novum Testamentum Graece et Latine. 1923

    Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece. 27th edition. 1898, 1993

    Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece. 28th edition. 2012

    United Bible Societies, The New Testament in Greek, 4th edition. 1993

    United Bible Societies, The New Testament in Greek, 5th edition. 2017

    The following English Versions (not a complete list), used the above Greek texts for their New Testament, with the reading, “τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ”, though have their own English translations.

    ASV, Westcott-Hort, Tregells

    RSV, Nestle-Aland

    NASB, Nestle-Aland

    NIV, Nestle-Aland , United Bible Societies

    NLT, Nestle-Aland , United Bible Societies

    ESV, Westcott-Hort, Weiss, Tischendorf

    CSB, Nestle-Aland , United Bible Societies

    NRSV, United Bible Societies

    HCSB, Nestle-Aland , United Bible Societies

    ISV, Nestle-Aland , United Bible Societies

    TNIV, Nestle-Aland

    NET, Nestle-Aland , United Bible Societies

    NCV, United Bible Societies

    GNB, United Bible Societies

    CEB, Nestle-Aland

    Amplified N. T., Westcott-Hort
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    And does not change the fact that is one reading of number of readings for that text. That selected reading has only 3% of the manuscript support.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you know NOTHING about textual studies, much like your understanding of Greek in your thread on Acts 1:16! always out of your depth and show your ignorance by what you say!
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    One of us is on the wrong side of this arguement.

    At issue is what is the actual word of God when it comes to a textual variant.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I have presented evidence from the Bible now disprove it
     
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