1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Feb 3, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,189
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Van, what makes you think discussions of the Scriptures is nonsense?

    What "false theology (is) being spewed as from a fire hose in this thread?"

    Perhaps you would like to explain using Scriptures how the central core system of thought, in which a person from which ALL the very basic systematic judgments and decisions are produced, can be separated from that person.

    Is that not what you seem to be indicating by stating, "Abraham was not declared righteous, his faith was?"

    The same word is used in the Scriptures for faith as is used for belief - pistis.

    The Scriptures state, faith (belief) comes (is endowed) through the work of the Word and the Holy Spirit. (Romans)

    Are you stating that Abraham was never endowed with such, or that only the endowment was righteous and Abraham remained unrighteous?

    The word righteous (which is an accounting word) is the same word as justice (used as a legal word) - dikaiosuné.

    Are you stating that Abraham was only $10 righteous when he needed to be $1000?

    Your post makes some mighty grand claims, but offers nothing of actual substance from which to discern truth, which is why I have asked so many questions.
     
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    5,053
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Faith:
    Baptist
    'For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God and it was accounted ['imputed,' 'credited,' 'reckoned,' 'counted'] to him for righteousness"' (Romans 4:3; c.f. Genesis 15:6). Righteousness was not accounted to Abraham's faith; it was accounted to him on account of his faith. What was his faith? It was faith in the promise of God concerning the Seed that should come, namely Christ (John 8:36; Galatians 3:16 etc.).
     
    #42 Martin Marprelate, Feb 4, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Show me where we see Gentiles specified, Martin:


    Romans 16:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith



    Paul's preaching of the Gospel, which is course preaching Christ crucified, was according to revelation of the Mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

    The Gospel of Christ is seen throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, as is...

    ...Gentile inclusion.

    Here are a few examples of Gentile Inclusion, and I will not include the first promise that applies for redemption for all mankind, Genesis 3:15:


    Genesis 12
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



    The Seed here is Christ. We know that...they didn't.


    Isaiah 49
    King James Version (KJV)


    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

    8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;




    Acts 26:23
    King James Version (KJV)

    23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.




    Again, we can see it and understand it...but they could not.

    So while we do see Gentile Inclusion associated with the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, we do not see Gentiles singled out to understand the Gospel, we see all men said to now receive understanding.

    And I will give you several (besides Romans 16, where we see a general principle that the revelation of the Mystery is the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel) passages where we see clear-cut statements that all men, in all Ages...did not receive the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it will be up to you to show that the context is strictly a context of Gentile Inclusion:


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



    You are ignoring everything in vv.2-5 which make it clear...

    1. The Mystery was made known to Paul by Revelation;
    2. The revealed Mystery is The Mystery of Christ (which is synonymous with the Mystery of the Gospel);
    3. The Mystery was not made known in other Ages;
    4. The Mystery was not made known to any man, as "the sons of men" is all inclusive of mankind, it does not distinguish between Jew and Gentile;
    5. The Mystery is now revealed to the holy Apostles and Prophets of Paul's Day by the Spirit, and that Spirit is of course the promised Spirit of the Old Testament, promised by the Father and taught of by Christ (Acts 1:4-5)...the Conforter.
    6. That though Gentile Inclusion is mentioned in v.6 you overlook the fact that the Jews had not received the promise, nor had the Old Testament Saints (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40), and that they too were in Paul's day receiving those promises.


    Now, do me a favor, don't tell me your going to be busy for a few days and will get back to this...and then not get back to it.

    Address these issues, Martin. Do not encourage those who do not have the background in the Word you have by jumping into a discussion, making assertions, then ignoring the problems with your assertions.

    And I will separate this because I want an answer from you. This passage makes the above first five points indisputable, and the sixth point...you should know to be true.


    Continued...
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Very glad you brought up another passage that makes it clear the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ began in this Age:


    Colossians 1:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



    The dispensation given to Paul is the Mystery which has been hid from Ages and Generations.

    You understand what that means, right?

    It is now made manifest to His Saints, which means, Martin...

    ...it was not previously made known to His Saints.

    And who are His Saints, Martin?

    Now here are the points for you to debunk in this one:

    1. The Word of God is fulfilled in the dispensation given to Paul;
    2. The Mystery in view has been hid from Ages and Generations, which is again all inclusive of mankind, just as we saw in Ephesians 3 and Romans 16;
    3. The Mystery is now being made known to the Saints, which again disallows a possibility that the Old Testament Saints had it made known to them;
    4. The Mystery is...the indwelling of Christ, which as I am sure you know, was not something anyone was privy to in the Old Testament, though it was spoken of and promised by God (Ezekiel 36:27), and taught of by Christ (John 14-16), and said not to have taken place even as late as the Lord's Ascension:


    Acts 1:4-5
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



    So, another passage where it is foolish to deny that the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to men in Ages past, as it was not revealed to the Saints prior to the revelation given by the Promised Spirit (1 Corinthians 2).


    Continued...
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, though there is a context of Gentile Inclusion, you ignore that Israel was just as lacking of Christ as the Gentiles were. Or you refuse to acknowledge that fact because it destroys your argument.


    Ephesians 2:5-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)



    Who was dead in sins, Martin?

    Just the Gentiles?

    So how do you propose men received the life Christ came to bestow...prior to His coming to bestow it?

    I'd be very curious to hear that gospel...



    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



    The "us" is the same as the "we" in v.5...it is all inclusive.

    There were none who had been eternally redeemed through the Blood of Christ, nor born again through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    None. Paul quotes that word in Romans 3, you know.



    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



    Its ironic how much time Protestants spend on this passage yet are not able to put in a greater context of Scripture.

    The Faith here is faith expressed in the Risen Savior, not faith that God will some day redeem the earth, as we see in Abraham.

    When was the Gift given, Martin, and what exactly is that gift?



    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



    What does Paul suggest about being created in Christ Jesus here...that it was taking place all throughout human history?

    Not at all.

    Now our mention of Gentile Inclusion, which you suggest is the Mystery now being revealed to the Saints, Apostles, and Prophets, which was not revealed to the sons of men, Saints, Apostles or Prophets prior to the coming of Christ:



    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;



    Who is the Circumcision, Martin? Those under Law. So they had the Law and an understanding that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, and came to reconcile men through Himself by dying in their stead that they might be brought into Eternal Union with Himself?

    Do you really want to be seen as teaching that?


    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.



    What did Israel have?

    The promises of God.

    Can you show me where Abraham received the Promise made to Israel, "I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep my judgments?"

    Of course not, Abraham didn't even have the specific Basic Doctrines of Christ that His Throne would be everlasting, that He would be put to death as the remedy for man's sin, or, that He would restore the Kingdom unto Israel.

    So what in this passage nullifies Paul's clear teaching that the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to the Saints, Apostles, Prophets, or any among the sons of men in Ages and generations past?

    That's all you have to show me.


    Continued...
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And you ignore one very important aspect...he was still waiting.

    And while men had revealed unto them that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God...


    Matthew 16:13-17
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



    ...because that was revealed to the disciples, we still do not overlook Peter's ignorance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


    Matthew 16:20-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



    Peter had not yet had the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to him...just as Paul teaches.

    It was a Mystery, previously unrevealed truth, and the idea that Jews (who are distinguished from the Gentiles when Gentile Inclusion is mentioned in relation to the Mystery) were privy to the Mystery is ludicrous and ignores a very basic principle that all of us, Martin, should be aware of.


    You impose a false argument to strengthen your position, because I have never even intimated that the Gospel is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    And once again you ignore the fact that here we have a clear statement that Israel (as well as Gentiles)...

    ...were still awaiting redemption.

    That redemption they awaited is not, as most think, the same as the redemption within the provision of God for men prior to His coming. Most equate the salvation of Old Testament Saints to that accomplished by Christ on the Cross, therefore never understanding the magnitude of the Cross:


    Hebrews 9:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    Yes, Martin, they had received the promise of eternal inheritance, but, until Christ died for them, they did not receive the eternal inheritance.

    Now, do me a favor, don't simply throw another proof text at me, address the points raised to you, if you don't mind.


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Without actually addressing what was given to you. But that's okay, because I don't mind helping those who are as confused about salvation in Christ as you appear to be.

    As I said...cast off the shackles of the doctrines of men. Give your loyalty to Christ and His Word...rather than dead men who also butchered Theology.


    That is primarily because at this point you cannot even allow that...you might be wrong.

    But that's okay, you don't have to acknowledge your error, it is good enough that your error be an example to the brethren who do give attention to some pretty clear teachings.



    Do you always make it a habit of adding to the Word of God so you, rather than the Word of God...can be right?

    Show me the translation that adds "to be specific" to the text.

    I will you give you the same points given Martin to address, so address the points, do not simply reiterate arguments you contrive by adding to the Word of God:

    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



    You are ignoring everything in vv.2-5 which make it clear...

    1. The Mystery was made known to Paul by Revelation;
    2. The revealed Mystery is The Mystery of Christ (which is synonymous with the Mystery of the Gospel);
    3. The Mystery was not made known in other Ages;
    4. The Mystery was not made known to any man, as "the sons of men" is all inclusive of mankind, it does not distinguish between Jew and Gentile;
    5. The Mystery is now revealed to the holy Apostles and Prophets of Paul's Day by the Spirit, and that Spirit is of course the promised Spirit of the Old Testament, promised by the Father and taught of by Christ (Acts 1:4-5)...the Conforter.
    6. That though Gentile Inclusion is mentioned in v.6 you overlook the fact that the Jews had not received the promise, nor had the Old Testament Saints (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40), and that they too were in Paul's day receiving those promises.


    Continued...
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Finally, someone asks, lol.

    Let's take a look. Here is Vine's definition:


    Bible Dictionaries
    Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
    Mystery

    1: μυστήριον
    (Strong's #3466 — Noun Neuter — musterion — moos-tay'-ree-on )
    primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Philippians 4:12 , mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptual significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints" (Colossians 1:26 , RV). "It is used of:

    "(a) spiritual truth generally, as revealed in the gospel, 1 Corinthians 13:2 ; 14:2 (cp. 1 Timothy 3:9 ). Among the ancient Greeks 'the mysteries' were religious rites and ceremonies practiced by secret societies into which any one who so desired might be received. Those who were initiated into these 'mysteries' became possessors of certain knowledge, which was not imparted to the uninitiated, and were called 'the perfected,' cp. 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 where the Apostle has these 'mysteries' in mind and presents the gospel in contrast thereto; here 'the perfected' are, of course, the believers, who alone can perceive the things revealed; (b) Christ, who is God Himself revealed under the conditions of human life, Colossians 2:2 ; 4:3 , and submitting even to death, 1 Corinthians 2:1 (in some mss., for marturion, testimony),7, but raised from among the dead, 1 Timothy 3:16 , that the will of God to cordinate the universe in Him, and subject it to Him, might in due time be accomplished, Ephesians 1:9 (cp. Revelation 10:7 ), as is declared in the gospel, Romans 16:25 ; Ephesians 6:19 ; (c) the Church, which is Christ's Body, i.e., the union of redeemed men with God in Christ, Ephesians 5:32 (cp. Colossians 1:27 ); (d) the rapture into the presence of Christ of those members of the Church which is His Body who shall be alive on the earth at His Parousia, 1 Corinthians 15:51 ; (e) the operation of those hidden forces that either retard or accelerate the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e., of God), Matthew 13:11 ; Mark 4:11 ; (f) the cause of the present condition of Israel, Romans 11:25 ; (g) the spirit of disobedience to God, 2 Thessalonians 2:7 ; Revelation 17:5,7 ; cp. Ephesians 2:2 ." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 256,257.] To these may be added (h) the seven local churches, and their angels, seen in symbolism, Revelation 1:20 ; (i) the ways of God in grace, Ephesians 3:9 . The word is used in a comprehensive way in 1 Corinthians 4:1 . * [* See The Twelve Mysteries of Scripture, by Vine.]


    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is Strong's:

    mystērion



    Pronunciation
    mü-stā'-rē-on (Key)
    [​IMG]




    Part of Speech
    neuter noun



    Root Word (Etymology)
    From a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth)




    Dictionary Aids

    Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

    TDNT Reference: 4:802,615





    KJV Translation Count — Total: 27x
    The KJV translates Strong's G3466 in the following manner: mystery (27x).




    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

    1. hidden thing, secret, mystery
      1. generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals

      2. a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding

      3. a hidden purpose or counsel
        1. secret will
          1. of men

          2. of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
    2. in rabbinic writings, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense
      1. of an OT saying

      2. of an image or form seen in a vision

      3. of a dream




    Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
    μυστήριον mystḗrion, moos-tay'-ree-on; from a derivative of μύω mýō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):—mystery.
    Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)
    STRONGS NT 3466: μυστήριον
    μυστήριον, μυστηρίου, τό (μύστης (one initiated; from μυέω, which see)), in classical Greek a hidden thing, secret, mystery: μυστήριον σου μή κατειπης τῷ φιλῶ, Menander; plural generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to be communicated by them to ordinary mortals; (cf. K. F. Hermann, Gottesdienstl. Alterthümer der Griechen, § 32). In the Scriptures:
    1. a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding: 1 Corinthians 13:2; 1 Corinthians 14:2; (of the secret rites of the Gentiles, Wis. 14:15, 23).
    2. a hidden purpose or counsel; secret will: of men, τοῦ βασιλέως, Tobit 12:7, 11; τῆς βουλῆς αὐτοῦ, Judith 2:2; of God: μυστήρια Θεοῦ, the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly, Wis. 2:22. In the N. T., God's plan of providing salvation for men through Christ, which was once hidden but now is revealed: Romans 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7 (on this see ἐν, I. 5 f.); Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:26f; with τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ added, Ephesians 1:9; τοῦ Θεοῦ, which God formed, Colossians 2:2; (1 Corinthians 2:1 WH text); τοῦ Χριστοῦ, respecting Christ, Colossians 4:3; τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, which is contained and announced in the gospel, Ephesians 6:19; ἐτελέσθη τό μυστήριον τοῦ Θεοῦ, said of the consummation of this purpose, to be looked for when Christ returns, Revelation 10:7; τά μυστήρια τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν or τοῦ Θεοῦ, the secret purposes relative to the kingdom of God, Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; used of certain single events decreed by God having reference to his kingdom or the salvation of men, Romans 11:25; 1 Corinthians 15:51; of God's purpose to bless the Gentiles also with salvation through Christ (cf. Lightfoot on Colossians 1:26), Ephesians 3:3, cf. Ephesians 3:5; with τοῦ Χριστοῦ added, Ephesians 3:4; οἰκονόμοι μυστηρίων Θεοῦ, the stewards of God's mysteries, i. e. those intrusted with the announcement of God's secret purposes to men, 1 Corinthians 4:1; used generally, of Christian truth as hidden from ungodly men: with the addition of τῆς πίστεως, τῆς εὐσεβείας, which faith and godliness embrace and keep, 1 Timothy 3:9, 16; τό μυστήριον τῆς ἀνομίας the mystery of lawlessness, the secret purpose formed by lawlessness, seems to be a tacit antithesis to God's saving purpose, 2 Thessalonians 2:7.
    3. Like רָזָא and סוד in rabbinic writers, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense: of an O. T. saying, Ephesians 5:32; of a name, Revelation 17:5; of an image or form seen in a vision, Revelation 1:20; Revelation 17:5; of a dream, (Theod.) Daniel 2:18f, 27-30, where the Sept. so renders רָז. (The Vulg. translates the wordsacramentum in Daniel 2:18; Daniel 4:6; Tobit 12:7; Wis. 2:22; Ephesians 1:9; Ephesians 3:3, 9; Ephesians 5:32; 1 Timothy 3:16; Revelation 1:20.) (On the distinctive N. T. use of the word cf. Campbell, Dissertations on the Gospels. diss. ix. part i.; Kendrick in B. D. American edition under the word ; Lightfoot on Colossians 1:26.)

    Thanks for asking!


    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Show where we see your definition of Mystery nullifying that the Mystery of Christ was not revealed in past Ages to past generation, Apostles, Prophets, or saints in these statements:


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


    Colossians 1:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:




    Romans 16:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



    Furthermore, show me where anyone was in Christ prior to Pentecost.

    You cannot show either of these, because it is too clear and clearly refutes your doctrine.

    Here is Paul again making mention of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ and we see the indwelling of God (which was promised by both the Father and Christ, John 14, Acts 1:4-5) is part of that Mystery:


    Ephesians 5:30-32
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.



    Let's see it again in the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


    Colossians 1:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not the knowledge, just the understanding.

    Apparently you are not familiar with the Basic Bible Principle that God would redeem from among all nations.

    Gentile Inclusion, while perhaps not as prevalent as the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is found throughout all Ages in the Old Testament.

    The argument that because the Prophets prophesied of Christ that they must have known the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not just weak, but contrary to some pretty simple statements made by Paul.

    Listen, if the System of Theology you have adopted makes you deny what Scripture makes clear, its time to abandon that System of Theology.


    So was the Gospel:


    Matthew 16:20-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



    Why do you think Peter took up a sword to keep Christ from the Cross?

    Because he had no understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.

    The mysteries of the Kingdom were revealed to him, but he was in opposition to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not because he was evil, but because he was...

    ...ignorant.

    All that would change on the Day of Pentecost.

    That day the disciples would begin to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because it is that day that the Comforter was sent, and it is He that reveals the Gospel Mystery to men:


    1 Corinthians 2:7-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



    What eye had not seen, and ear had not heard, and what had not entered into the hearts of men was...

    ...the Hidden Wisdom of God, which was veiled in Mystery.

    Read the fuller context, my friend, you will see it is a context specific to Christ crucified.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nonsense.

    We know what was rejected by Israel:


    John 1:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



    Yes, Jews despised Gentiles and Samaraitans, but, they also despised Christ:



    Isaiah 53
    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

    2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.



    When Messiah came, He simply did not fit what the doctrines of men thought He would be.

    Sadly, there are still many who embrace the doctrines of men and cannot see the Christ of Scripture.


    Continued...
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have shown you simple statements that show that understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel was not given to the sons of men, Saints, Apostles, or Prophets in Ages and Generations past.

    And you will have to say "There was nothing hidden concerning Gentile Inclusion" if you equate the Prophecy of both the Christ (which is the Gospel in the Old Testament) and Gentile Inclusion with having an understanding of that Prophecy, because both are given in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Here is a combination of both:


    Isaiah 49:5-7
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.


    We see the redemption of both Jew and Gentile spoken of here.

    That does not mean that anyone understood it, and it certainly doesn't mean that they understood the Gospel of Christ as we do, who have been enlightened by the Comforter.

    So as I said before, not much of an argument, lol, because there has to be two credible sides for an argument.

    And saying men understood the Gospel because the Gospel is mention in the Old Testament, or, saying that the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ is Gentile Inclusion because it wasn't made known in the Old Testament...

    ...is absurd.
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,189
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Go back to post # 40.

    EVERY verse is documented with a link to the source it was taken. I do this as a customary curtesy to the readers so they may find the truth and read from the passages to discover if I have posted out of context what I have shown as valued.

    I did not add, and nothing was taken away from the Scriptures I presented. That claim lays far closer to your own footpath then mine.

    Here, I'll give you the whole paragraph from which I posted in #40, again. See the little blue verse numbers? Click on any one of them and you will see that I did not add to the Scriptures.

    1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.​



    Such a demeaning claim as you have made is as unfounded as the science back in the day that the earth was oval shaped, or that it took millennia to carve out the Grand Canyon.

    Such a claim is a false, baseless, and a claim that more often is suggested by those that have no truth to offer, then from one who actually knows what they are discussing.

    You are wrong on so many levels in both the appointment that I cling to some human construction in preference to the Scriptures, and that I have presented that which is not factual about the topic of just what is the mystery hidden from the OT saints.
     
  15. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,230
    Likes Received:
    1
    Indeed, but that isn't relevant to believing a news report. Total Depravity says we are too depraved for our faith to motivate God. Our depraved hearts don't motivate God, God's promise motivates God. Our depraved hearts believe a mere news report and this qualifies us for human adoption. The adopted descendants of Abraham inherit righteousness, therefore, it isn't our faith which motivates God... it is God's promise which motivates God, and our faith merely qualifies us to inherit that promise or not.

    Therefore, our faith simply qualifies us as descendants of Adam and his death, or descendants of Abraham and Christ's righteousness. Either way, we don't need to be regenerated to believe, and we don't need to understand to believe.
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And what you are lacking is even the remotest Scriptural basis for the one thing you must have in order for that to be plausible: that Israel had already received of the promises of GOd.

    They didn't.

    That is why both Jew and Gentile are said to be made one in Christ.

    Gentiles are not made like unto Jews, both Jew and Gentile are made like unto Christ, and are one in Him.

    Your doctrine has Gentiles being made one with Israel.


    You are the one that has to answer that question, my friend.


    And you are a prime example why people do not learn as quickly as they should.

    That is why some people on this forum are in the same place they have been for years.

    Because the systems of theology they have adopted keep them confined to Scripture they think supports their doctrine.


    God bless.
     
  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,189
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ephesians 3: 6 from multiple translations so that Darrell can see that the "mystery" was that which is commonly referred to as the "church age." That time in which the Gentiles are given the Scriptures to carry to all nations (given in the rest of Ephesians 3).

    New International Version
    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

    New Living Translation
    And this is God's plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God's children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus.

    English Standard Version
    This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

    Berean Study Bible
    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

    New American Standard Bible
    to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    King James Bible
    (See the note at the bottom of the page)

    Contemporary English Version
    And the mystery is this: Because of Christ Jesus, the good news has given the Gentiles a share in the promises God gave to the Jews. God has also let the Gentiles be part of the same body.

    Good News Translation
    The secret is that by means of the gospel the Gentiles have a part with the Jews in God's blessings; they are members of the same body and share in the promise that God made through Christ Jesus.

    NET Bible
    namely, that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

    New American Standard 1977
    to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    American Standard Version
    to wit , that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and co-partners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel:

    English Revised Version
    to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    Weymouth New Testament
    I mean the truth that the Gentiles are joint heirs with us Jews, and that they form one body with us, and have the same interest as we have in the promise which has been made good in Christ Jesus through the Good News,​


    Note: in the KJV, the specific is given in verse 5 which states:
    5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


    There is no conflict with that which I have presented and the Scriptures.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Go to my responses to Post 40.

    And?

    "To be specific" is not in the text.

    Show me the manuscript that has "to be specific."

    That is your whole argument.


    Very magnanimous of you.

    However, I would suggest you stop looking to men to make your arguments for you, particularly when it is men adding to the Word of God.

    Of course, this is not the first time your handicap in regards to emphasis has arisen.

    ;)


    Something was added, which is why I pointed it out.

    And to make it worse...

    6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    ...you yell out what has been added to the Word of God.

    Check your own resources before you post it, as a courtesy...unto yourself.


    See the little blue number...click on number 6 and read your resource again.


    Just a simple observation of your reliance on adding to the Word of God to support the doctrines of men you cling so veraciously to.

    Not false, not baseless, and I am still awaiting a response to the very simple points raised which are not only truth, but truth you reject so you can cling to your theology.


    Great. All you have to do is show me where I am wrong on any point.

    You can't even do that with this one.

    You have added to the Word of God to support the ludicrous notions you have presented, and all of this...because you can't address the issues. I am very sorry for you, and sorry that it takes a little chain yanking, but, you will address the points or be subject to the dubious focus of my humor.

    Your choice.


    ;)


    You do.

    That is why you butcher the Word of God. You have to make it fit with what you have been told by men you must believe.

    Start reading you Bible, my friend, and ask God to show you what it means. His wisdom is there for the asking.


    "To be specific" is not in the text, and that seems to be a magic bullet for you, lol.

    That is your entire argument, and you ignore so much that denies your position.

    The Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed to the sons of men, saints, Apostles, or Prophets in past Ages or generations.

    It is the Hidden wisdom of God in a Mystery.

    You are not going to find a resource that can adequately add, or take away from the Word of God to change the fact that no man understood the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ prior to the coming of the Comforter.


    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Conflict seems to follow you around, my friend.

    Now, you have asserted that...



    ...and...


    ...and...



    So which is it? Definition number one, two, three, or all of them together?

    The reason your definitions are tossed about with every wind is because they lack a biblical understanding of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Nevertheless, I will overlook your confusion and go back to asking you to now defend your definitions by addressing the points which show your confusion and lack of understanding:


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



    You are ignoring everything in vv.2-5 which make it clear...

    1. The Mystery was made known to Paul by Revelation;
    2. The revealed Mystery is The Mystery of Christ (which is synonymous with the Mystery of the Gospel);
    3. The Mystery was not made known in other Ages;
    4. The Mystery was not made known to any man, as "the sons of men" is all inclusive of mankind, it does not distinguish between Jew and Gentile;
    5. The Mystery is now revealed to the holy Apostles and Prophets of Paul's Day by the Spirit, and that Spirit is of course the promised Spirit of the Old Testament, promised by the Father and taught of by Christ (Acts 1:4-5)...the Comforter.
    6. That though Gentile Inclusion is mentioned in v.6 you overlook the fact that the Jews had not received the promise, nor had the Old Testament Saints (Hebrews 11:13; 39-40), and that they too were in Paul's day receiving those promises.


    Get busy. It gets a little boring just contending with reiterated proof texts already shown to be in conflict with some basic principles of the Hebrew Scriptures, such as the notion that the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is limited to Gentile Inclusion (though you are now forced to expand that definition) because the Gospel is found in the Old Testament and Gentile Inclusion is not.

    Look forward to your response.


    God bless.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,102
    Likes Received:
    108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since that is not what I said, this line is an unedited insult.

    My post specifically stated the two assertions. So Obfuscation, rather than discussion.

    Change of subject ploy, more obfuscation.

    If Abraham himself had been made righteous, he would not have been confined to Abraham's bosom because he was less than perfect.

    off topic boilerplate, devoid even of identifying the difference many translations make based on whether a noun or verb is used,.

    More obvious error, faith comes from hearing and hearing the message of Christ.

    Yes, Abraham was not made righteous at that time, but later after Christ died, Abraham was made righteous and perfect..

    translators select which meaning from the range of historical meanings a word has, based on context. Since we are made righteous, justified fits and "declared righteous" conflicts with undergoing the circumcision of Christ.

    No, I am saying if part of your problem is solved, that does not mean your entire problem is solved.

    My post presented obvious truth, and your deflection questions are for the purpose of obfuscation.[/quote]
     
    #60 Van, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...