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The name Lucifer.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The name Lucifer is a chain to the Catholic Church.
    The KJV in Isaiah 14:12, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

    And the name is a transliteration from the Latin Valgate.
    "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes"

    Not from the Hebrew, הילל hêylêl.
    Not from the LXX, Eωσφορος, Eōsphoros, phōsphoros.
     
    #1 37818, Jan 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It means the same thing, brightness. It's a prophecy about the king of Babylon, his glory and his fall. Many think the prophecy is figurative of the fall of the angels, but that is speculation only and not binding on doctrine.

    The king of Babylon was certainly under Satan's control, so it may be an apt name for the Devil, but I do not believe this to have been his former name in Heaven, and neither do I believe the prophecy to be an account of his fall.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The LXX

    How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth.
     
  4. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Great question!
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The devils name in Matthew 12:24, "Βεελζεβούλ", literally means "lord of dung"!
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Most of the translations go with Lucifer, but "Day Star." "light bringer," shinning star can be found. Our perplexity arises from the fact Satan rules over the domain of darkness, not light. And it seems a stretch to ascribe "false light" to the shiny thing that takes our eyes off of God. Oh well, this one has been kicked around for years.
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:12

    When did the darkness of this age begin and who were the world-rulers?

    And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luke 10:18 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12 -------- Are those three speaking of the same scenario ?

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

    Keep in mind the manifestation of the Son of God, as a man who could die, was foreordained before the foundation of the world (kosmos).

    before, this present age of which the Devil and his angels became the world (Kosmos) rulers.
     
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  8. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The word "lucifer" is the rendering of the Hebrew Helel at this verse according to the Latin Vulgate. The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology affirmed that this word was "borrowed from Latin lucifer the morning star" (p. 613).

    Gleason Archer noted: "The title Helel, which KJV (following the Latin Vulgate) translates 'Lucifer,' is rendered Hesphoros in the Septuagint (meaning 'Dawn-bringer' and referring to the morning star)" (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, p. 268). This Greek Septagint rendering was said to be the common Greek name for Venus as the morning star.

    Henry Thiessen affirmed that "this term [Lucifer] means the morning star, an epithet of the planet Venus" (Lectures in Systematic Theology, p. 202). At Isaiah 14:12, John Wesley gave this note: "Lucifer--which properly is a bright star that ushers in the morning" (Explanatory Notes upon the O. T., III, p. 1985).

    William Wilson pointed out that the meaning of the Hebrew word according to the Septuagint and Vulgate was "brilliant star, i.e. Lucifer, the morning star" (O. T. Word Studies, p. 261).
    The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia has at its entry for Lucifer the following: “the morning star, an epithet of the planet Venus” (p. 1934).
    John Brown wrote that “the king of Babylon is called Lucifer, or the morning-star, because his glory and power far surpassed those of his fellow-sovereigns (Dictionary of the Bible, p. 483).
     
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  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The 1968 Cassell's New Latin Dictionary indicated that the Latin word "lucifer" comes from two root words meaning "light-bearing, light-bringing" and that it would be translated into English as "Lucifer, the morning star, the planet Venus." According to the English-Latin section of this dictionary, the translation of "morning-star" in English is given as "lucifer" in Latin.

    The Oxford Latin Dictionary gave two definitions for lucifer: “light-bringing, light-bearing” and “the morning star” (p. 1045).

    The Oxford Dictionary of Word Histories
    affirmed that Lucifer is “a Latin word originally, meaning ’light-bringing, morning star” (p. 309).

    At its entry for day-star, John White listed “lucifer” as its meaning in Latin (Latin-English Dictionary, p. 100). For Lucifer, this definition is given: “the morning-star, the planet Venus” (p. 355).
     
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  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps Archer could have more correctly said "following its English predecessors." Yes, the word does originate in the Latin language. The Wycliffe Bible, Coverdale Bible, Matthew Bible, Taverner Bible, Great Bible, Geneva Bible, and the Bishops Bible all have "O Lucifer" -- suggesting the term had been in the English language (and English Bibles) well over 200 years before the KJV translators got ahold of it. (Dictionary.com puts it in the English language as early as AD 1000.)
     
  12. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    That should always be said concerning the KJV. Excellent point!
     
  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    In a sermon, KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes referred to "St Peter's Lucifer in cordibus [daystar in your hearts]" (Hewison, Selected Writings, p. 112).

    An edition of the Latin Vulgate printed with the 1538 Coverdale’s English translation of its New Testament has “lucifer oriator in cordib” in its Latin text at 2 Peter 1:19 with its rendering in English as “the day star arise in your hearts”.

    Lancelot Andrewes evidently cited or used the Latin Vulgate’s word Lucifer in his sermon with the meaning “daystar.”
     
  14. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    A few things I found interesting, whatever they may mean. My Brenton Greek-English Septuagint has ἑωσφόρος, which Brenton translates as Lucifer. Every online Greek-English translator I plugged ἑωσφόρος into translated it as Lucifer -- though some did not know how to translate it, none translated it as morning star. Looking at the etymology of words on Lexico online dictionary, I found the following:
    Greek Phosphorus (or eosphoros) = light-bringing: eos/phos-light; phoros-bringing
    Latin Lucifer = light-bringing: lux-light; fer-bearing/bringing
    And the upshot of this is what? KJV is bad?
     
  15. Conan

    Conan Active Member

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    No, not the KJV. It is certain onlyist author's untrue sayings that are wrong, not the KJV itself.

    Evidence from the KJV

    In response to the objection from supporters of KJV-onlyism, there are several points that can be made directly KJV.

    Here's how the verse looks in the 1611 edition of the KJV:

    [​IMG]
    Notice in the original 1611 edition of the KJV, there is a marginal note for the words "O Lucifer". The marginal note reads "Or, O daystarre".

    Clearly the KJV translators themselves understood the meaning of the Hebrew and provided "daystarre" as additional translational meaning. Similarly, the marginal note in the 1672 edition of the KJV says "for the morning star that goeth before the sun is called Lucifer"

    Isaiah 14:12 & Revelation 22:16 the morning star - DESENMASCARANDO LAS FALSAS DOCTRINAS - Gabitos
     
  16. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    According to Dictionary.com, “Over 60 percent of all English words have Greek or Latin roots. In the vocabulary of the sciences and technology, the figure rises to over 90 percent [I suspect there is also a fairly high percentage for theological terminology, too, rlv]. About 10 percent of the Latin vocabulary has found its way directly into English without an intermediary (usually French).”

    Historyhit.com quotes novelist and playwright Dorothy Sayers saying the English language had a “wide, flexible, and double-tongued vocabulary.” They go on to explain that she meant was “English has two tones” – often there is a word rooted in the Anglo-Saxon tongue, and then a word from the Latin for the same thing.

    All this to say, often when we get to arguing about words like “Lucifer” and “baptize” both sides (in my opinion) come off looking silly – like they don’t under the background of our language. No, the KJV translators did not transliterate “Lucifer” from the Latin or “baptize” from the Greek when they created their new translation. Yes, that is the background of those words, but they were already long since in the English language. Yes, Lucifer also had/has a meaning outside of its theological or biblical use (e.g. Venus).

    Some translations will have a Latin-based word is Isaiah 14:12 (Spanish, Lucero; Italian, Lucifero; Romanian, Luceafăr; Albanian, Lucifer) and some will have a Germanic-based word (Danish, Morgenstjerne; German, Morgenstern; Icelandic, morgunstjarna; Swedish, morgonstjärna). It seems to me that all these mean the same thing – whatever it means! Perhaps the RV (1885) translators did not think so. They changed it (and did not even provide a footnote, at least in the edition I accessed).
     
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