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Featured The Natural man

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jun 30, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Is the ' natural man ' a reference to a lost person or a ' Carnal Christian ' ?
    1 cor 2
    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The bible does not teach that a "carnal christian" exists.
    The natural man is unsaved. Natural men cannot correctly understand the grace of God.
     
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  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    1 cor 3
    1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3FOR YE ARE YET CARNAL : for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
     
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    This is speaking to saved Christian's.
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I know it is speaking to professed Christians.
    It is a word of rebuke, not a description.
    There is no such thing as a carnal Christian.
     
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  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    It is a reference to a carnal Christian in that passage. The context begins in chapter one where Paul is correcting the Christians in Corinth about their carnal mindset that was causing division.
     
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  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    So are you saying they are not true believers? Even though at the end of this same passage it says this ?
    21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
    22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
    23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
     
  8. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    And here ?
    16¶Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Read what I said. They are professed Christians but Paul is rebuking them saying he could not speak to them as spiritual, he had to speak to them as either babes or even those that a carnal like unsaved natural men acting as if they were not yet saved so he's rebuking them there is no such thing as a category of carnal Christian.
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If there are no carnal Christians then we only have perfect Christians. There are no other options.
     
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  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Acting as if they were not yet saved ?
    I think it's clear these are fully saved believers who are being ' Carnal ' with their ' divisions ' . These carnal Christian's . These babes . These ' Natural men ' are not able to bear the things Paul wants to share with them. The Mature things that The Perfect man ( mature in christ) otherwise known as the spiritual man . The ' spiritual ' man is the Mature believer who is able to hear the meat of the word . The natural man ( babe in Christ ) the Carnal man is not able to bear the things Paul wants them to progress onto .
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe "natural man" is a reference to the flesh (whether lost or Christian).
     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yep
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Well at least you're consistent. You believe many things different than what the Bible actually teaches. The natural man is unsaved.
    If you would humble yourself and ask Archangel he'll tell you the Greek on it that the man under the power of the flesh the natural man is not saved and that's the same thing Paul is saying to these people you're acting as if your natural
    All Christians are spiritual Christians
     
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    My understanding on this is that in context of 1 Corinthians 2 The Natural man , this is referring to a believer . Paul is speaking to The spiritual ( Mature, not as some have translated as ' a person who has the Holy Spirit) The ' Perfect ' man . and he is saying that he is speaking wisdom to them and they are able to hear and bear it . But the Natural man ( saved believer who is a babe and carnal ) it is foolishness, Hes unable to discern ( whilst being carnal) and cannot the know the things of the spirit ( whilst being carnal ect .
    But some teach that no this is referring to lost people who cannot believe the Gospel ect .
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Scripture only speaks of two kinds of men.
    Kata sarka
    Kata Pneuma
    Those under the dominion of the flesh, those under the dominion of the Spirit.
    Roman's 8 is quite clear,those without the Spirit are not believers.
     
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  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Exactly the clear position found in scripture
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. We have to always keep in mind that Paul wrote to Christians. Churches were his original audience, and we are his current audience.
     
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  19. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    I agree that if a person does not have the Holy spirit he is not saved .
    But Paul is addressing the church. ( those that have the Spirit.
    notice in 1 cor 6
    6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    So paul is and can speak among those Corinthians who are mature ( perfect) the wisdom, the deeper things so to speak. He continues this focus all the way up to ...
    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
    Paul here doesnt suddenly drop in a verse about lost people Hes making a point that He who is ' spiritual ' which is still the same mature person he is saying in verse 6 . contrasted with the Natural man ( The saved believer who is not ready for more ' spiritual ( mature ) wisdom . Why ? because they are behaving carnally . Check the Greek if you must. The Natural ( fleshy ) v ' Carnal ( fleshy ) it's just a synonym. Chapter 3 flows from chapter 2 .
     
  20. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Active Member

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    Notice in Galations 6.1
    what the term ' spiritual ' refers to .
    1¶Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
    This is a Mature believer ( spiritual ) The same as mentioned in 1 cor 2 .
    ' spiritual ' does not mean ( A person who has the Holy Spirit)
     
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