Featured The New Perspective on Paul

I think an accurate and informed discussion of the NPP would make a great thread. Thanks JonC.

 

NPP, especially Wright, hold that we have to have a final vindication and a final justification via our good works and fruit in the judgement of God after death, and Wrights holds that water baptism is the entry way into the Kingdom!

 

Which always happens when one denies psa nd pauline Justification, as Wright and his ilk do!

 

Why not address the actual issue? Was it "Does God provide equipping and enabling grace post salvation? Of course the answer is yes, but that truth is not the issue. You falsely claimed Romans 5:1-2 refers to post salvation grace, rather than accessing God's saving grace through faith prior to salvation. That is the issue!!!

 

Please stop with your false statements. Did I say faith was works or was according to grace? According to grace.

 

You used Romans 5:1 which refers to accessing the “grace in which we stand” by faith. Paul is clearly speaking of accessing God’s enabling grace to “stand” firm by faith in Jesus.

Romans 5:1 is not saying we access God’s grace in salvation by faith. God’s grace in salvation has been poured out upon the person prior to faith through Holy Spirit drawing, conviction, revealing the truth of Jesus and Him crucified for sins.

In fact, accordingly to scripture, faith is the result of God’s grace in choosing the person for salvation and Holy Spirit working in that person’s life.

God’s grace (unmerited favor) continues after salvation by indwelling Holy Spirit equipping Christians for service to Christ, guiding into all truth, strengthening the inner man to endure persecution and producing love for others.

peace to you

 

Yep God's grace is poured out on the person prior to salvation. That grace is a preacher sent to preach the gospel to them. Romans 10:9-17

 

So then we actually agree that faith does not cause anything. But is the reason God justifies a person.

 

The basis and reason God forgives any is due to the death of Jesus in their stead!

 

Do you know the Scripture that says that?

 

If what you say is true, then Wright is an apostate and is preaching the doctrine of devils.

 

So a sermon heard is a work of grace?

I agree?

Once a sermon is heard, can it be unheard? No?

Then it's irresistible grace.

 

He does not see Pauline Justification as being how an individual gets saved and justified by God, but how to be identified that already was saved, as he holds that OT Judaism also had saving graced!

 

I am so sorry Sir, that when I present scripture, you seem unable to grasp what it says.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction [or access] by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

You do not go "into this grace in which we stand" by being already within God's grace.

As far as your unreferenced claim faith is the result of God's grace in choosing the person for salvation, that once again is the opposite of what scripture teaches, and I will reference 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says we are chosen "through faith in the truth." Thus, if you accept scripture means what it says, then our faith preceded being chosen for salvation.

The fact God's unmerited favor continues after salvation is not an issue.

 

I am sick of your posting something I did not say. Does truth have any meaning? I said, and supported with Romans 5:1-2, that faith provides our access to God's grace. If you are unwilling to address my (and the bible's actual position) please stop posting.

So what does our faith cause? God's consideration of our faith as to whether He will credit it as righteousness or not. If you reply, please quote me and do not claim I said faith does not provide or cause anything.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:13 …. “because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification by Holy Spirit and belief in the truth”.

You just literally re-wrote scripture, pretending to quote it directly, to make it fit your beliefs while accusing me of not understanding scripture.

This verse doesn’t say we were “chosen through faith”. It says God chose us for salvation from the beginning through sanctification of Holy Spirit and belief in the truth.

Such dishonesty is unworthy of debate

Thanks for the conversation

Peace to you

 

A work has a cause and effect. Faith is a reason which can be considered a cause. But they are not the same kind of cause. That is why I have argued that faith does not cause anything, being it is not a work. To insist faith to be a cause is to insist it is some kind of work. A cause and effect is a work.

 

Good grief you just made that up out of thin air. In scripture a work is a reference to the OT law. Stop trying to add to scripture. Its just getting ridiculous.

 

No. Romans 4:2-5, ". . . For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." This took place 430 years before the law.