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The problem of Acts 13:17-20 in the modern english translations

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by RAdam, Apr 7, 2010.

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  1. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    Caleb was 40 years old during year 2 of the Exodus (or the next year after the Exodus took place). We know this because this is when the spies were sent into Caanan and he states in Joshua that he was 40 when that took place. Then he states that at the end of the conquest of Caanan at the division of the land he was 85, meaning there were 45 years in between. Thus 45-39=6.
     
    #21 RAdam, Apr 8, 2010
  2. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    The Exodus occurred in/around 1445 B.C.. Samuel was born in/around 1105 B.C. (I am using the time line found in the MacArthur NKJV Study Bible). So, unless Samuel was 110 years old when he took over judging Israel then 450 years is way off for it to pertain to the time of the judges.

    As Dr.Bob and others have pointed out, the time between Israel going into Egypt and the conquest of Canaan was over 470 years, but Paul did say "about" [hos, ως] so he was using a general term and not an exact one.

    So... how is "about 450 years" supposed to be correct when it was more like 340? Paul was a smart man and I seriously doubt he would have fudged over a century by saying "something like". Using 450 to approximate 476, however, is a totally different matter. Paul was speaking to Jews and those who feared God so they knew the history and the times. Paul would have been called down for trying to pass off less than three and a half centuries as four and a half.
     
    #22 Trotter, Apr 8, 2010
  3. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    The problem is you are using secular dates rather than those found in the bible. If you add up those found in the bible, rather than relying on highly questionable secular dating, you will find that the period of the judges is exactly 450 years. That period is measured from the beginning of the first servitude of Israel found in Judges to the choosing of Saul as King (while Samuel was judge).

    The best method of dating is not to use the B.C. dating, which is based on the 2nd century AD astronomoer Ptolemy and is based on conjecture. But rather the best method is to begin at the creation of Adam and move forward using only biblical dates. Doing such you'll find that the date of the Exodus is 2513 from the creation of Adam, the beginning of the Judges period is 2573, and the selection of Saul as king is 3023.
     
    #23 RAdam, Apr 8, 2010
  4. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Either way it should give you the exact same number of years whether you count forward or backward.
     
    #24 Trotter, Apr 8, 2010
  5. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    It does. If you could forward using only the bible dates you get 3023-2573=450. Right on the dot. This corresponds with absolute accuracy to the dates given in the book of judges for the lengths of the periods of servitudes, rests, and judgeships. Paul wasn't off by even a year!

    The problem with B.C. dates as they are commonly accepted today is there is a period of conjecture dealing with the Persian period in history. The B.C. dates you'll see prior to Alexander are iffy at best. The most sure way is to use the bible.
     
    #25 RAdam, Apr 8, 2010
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Every reputable Bible scholar places the Exodus at c 1440 BCE.

    Every reputable Bible scholar places the Wandering at 38.5 years (after 1.5 getting to Sinai and receiving the Law).

    Every reputable Bible scholar places the Conquest at c 1400 BCE (after the Exodus) and lasting 7 year minimum.

    Every reputable Bible scholar places the beginning of the era of the Judges at c 1350 BCE

    Every reputable Bible scholar places the end of Judges and onset of the monarchy/reign of Saul at c 1010 BCE.

    NO wiggle room. So 1350 earliest beginning of Judges to 1010 beginning of Monarchy is 340 years. Tops.

    Far cry from those contriving 450??

    As stated clearly, the text says "And AFTER these four hundred and fifty years, He gave judges until Samuel."

    After c 1830 BCE (Joseph in Egypt) to c 1380 BCE (final division of the Land of Promise) which just happens to be <wait for it> EXACTLY 450 years.

    English is not hard to understand. Jacobean sentence structure notwithstanding. Paul was talking in simple terms of the 450 years BEFORE the judges.
     
    #26 Dr. Bob, Apr 8, 2010
  7. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    It is a sad day when people trust the scholars and secular history over the bible. Here's a suggestion: go and tabulate the dates in the bible, not according to secular history which is highly questionable, but according to the divinely inspired text of the bible. Go do that and then come back and tell me that I'm wrong.

    The bible states twice, once in Exodus 12 and again in Galatians 3, that from Abraham receiving the promise from God to the Exodus is 430 years. The wanderings are 40 years. The conquest is 6. I'll even give you 7, although that's not right. That's more than 450 years.

    What should we use? Secular dates of history, the writings of scholars, or the bible? Would it shock you to learn that many of the so called scholars guess at their dates? There have been many brilliant bible students that fall into these traps - they use Ptolemy's dates, or Josephus's dates, or they make an educated guess (which is just a better way of saying a wild guess). Few have come along that used the bible and only the bible. What should we use? The guesswork of man, or the writings of God.

    I'll give you two sources to consider. Both men used only one source to compile their dates, that being the bible. I don't refer you to their B.C. dates, but only to their dates from the creation of Adam, called by them AD. HOM..

    Anstey's work

    Mauro's work

    I don't subscribe to all the views of either man, but their work of chronology is spot on and by the bible.
     
    #27 RAdam, Apr 8, 2010
  8. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    "NO wiggle room. So 1350 earliest beginning of Judges to 1010 beginning of Monarchy is 340 years. Tops."

    It's sad that none of these reputable scholars took the time to actually go to the bible, to the book of judges, and add up the dates given in the text. If they had they would have clearly seen their dates were wrong. So much for the scholars.
     
    #28 RAdam, Apr 8, 2010
  9. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    Anyone care to correct me from the bible?
     
    #29 RAdam, Apr 8, 2010
  10. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    Perhaps you don't realize, RAdam, that the "Dr." of Dr.Bob's username is there for a purpose. Bob IS a scholar and a good one at that. He doesn't go around hiding behind his degrees, though.

    How is bob's data different from the bible?
     
    #30 Trotter, Apr 8, 2010
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    You cannot think that there is no "overlap" in the Book of Judges. That would be absurd (as one judged in the north and another hundreds of miles away).

    Only a grade schooler would just add up all the years and think that this is some sort of "grand total". It is like the geneological tables - overlaps, missing people, etc. Ussher did that and we mock his statement that adding all the dates blah blah blah comes to Sept 4004 BCE.

    If the judges were "ruling" for 450 years, where on earth do you put a start and stop date?

    Scholarship is a boogey-man for those who can't handle facts. It really isn't our enemy.

    Judges started no earlier than 1375 BCE (death of Joshua, historic FACT) and ended no later than 1050 BCE (Coronation of Saul, historical FACT)

    Want to see you change 325 years MAXIMUM extent of the Judges into a mythical 450 years.

    Please, lay out the time line for me.
     
    #31 Dr. Bob, Apr 8, 2010
  12. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    So a few scribes saw this apparent error and sought to emend the text. Certainly the majority of scribes would not have been so foolish as to introduce so glaring an error into the text, would they?

    Jonathan C. Borland
     
    #32 jonathan.borland, Apr 9, 2010
  13. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    I think the Byzantine manuscripts should still be translated with a similar meaning of the modern versions, namely, "And after these things, which lasted about 450 years, he gave judges until Samuel the prophet."

    As many people read a different punctuation into the verse today, so also did some scribes many years ago, which caused them to think that Paul said God gave them judges for 450 years, which erroneous interpretation they proceeded to correct by repositioning the clauses.

    The Byzantine reading was more difficult to scribes and begged for correction, and thus it is more likely the original reading.

    Jonathan C. Borland
     
    #33 jonathan.borland, Apr 9, 2010
  14. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    Sure, there were overlapping periods. This judge's period is under this period of servitude and so forth, however if one carefully goes through the book of Judges you can find the front to back dates and add them up.

    Ussher made mistakes, namely guessing at periods of time instead of computing them by the bible at certain times and so forth. He also subtracted wrongfully from the period of the Judges to fit his preconceived notions. Ussher did some good things, but all in all he was tainted by not following the bible entirely.

    Where is there a gap in the geneological charts in Genesis and upon what authority to you make this assertion?

    The key problem is people are relying on statements found outside the bible to date events in the bible. That's absurd. That's relying on fallible man to correct the infallible word of God. If we can date events in the bible, they must be done using the bible and only the bible. To use anything else is to bring in uncertainty. That's the reason you have the period of time for the Judges wrong. The bible gives us a period of 450 years. You reject this for the work of fallible scholars. Where else do you reject the bible's accuracy and authority?

    The period of the Judges begins at the first servitude and ends at the selection of Saul as king.

    8 years servitude under Chushanrishathaim
    40 years rest by Othniel
    18 years servitude under Eglon King of Moab
    80 years rest by Ehud
    20 years servitude under Jabin King of Canaan (Shamgar is judge at this time)
    40 years rest by Barak
    7 years servitude under Midian
    40 years rest by Gideon
    3 years of usurped reign by Abimelech
    23 years of judgeship of Tola
    22 years of judgeship of Jair
    18 years servitude under Ammon
    6 years judgeship of Jephthah
    7 years of judgeship of Ibzan
    10 years of judgeship of Elon
    8 years of judgeship of Abdon
    40 years servitude under Philistines (Samson judges 20 years under this time)
    40 years judgeship of Eli
    20 years of judgeship of Samuel until Saul chosen as king

    That's just elementary enough for a grade schooler to add up.

    Those dates are gotten from a simple read through of Judges and 1 Samuel. According to you though, we can't trust simple dates from the bible and must therefore reject them for something found outside the bible.
     
    #34 RAdam, Apr 9, 2010
  15. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    I realize that Bob is a scholar, but being a scholar doesn't make one infallible or give one more weight than the inspired text.

    Bob's data is different in that it rejects the data given in the bible for dates which came from man.
     
    #35 RAdam, Apr 9, 2010
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Matthew Henry discusses this in his commentary.

    I prefer to believe Paul's words, he was a scholar himself and probably knew the history of the Jews better than any scholar since then.

    But this is getting off on a rabbit trail, what we were discussing before is a difference between the KJV and the MVs. The MVs assign the 450 years from Abraham to when the seven nations were defeated and the land divided into lots, where the KJV assigns these 450 years to be the times of the judges, from the dividing of the land until Samuel.

    So, this is another clear example of differences between the KJV and the MVs.
     
    #36 Winman, Apr 9, 2010
  17. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    Then how do you explain 1 Kings 6:1? 480 years minus 6 years of Solomon's reign minus 40 years of David's reign minus 40 years of Saul's reign minus 40 years of wilderness wondering equals 354 years of judges, and that's not even subtracting the years of the conquest under Joshua!

    Henry says there were really only 339 actual years, and we ought to believe him. Even the Byzantine reading can be translated with the same meaning as the modern versions, as many commentators have done (cf., e.g., Bloomfield's Greek New Testament).

    Jonathan C. Borland
     
    #37 jonathan.borland, Apr 9, 2010
  18. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    First of all, the 339 years Henry refers to is the total length of the Judges period minus the times when Israel was under servitude to a foreign power. The total period is 450 years. The periods of servitude are 8, 18, 20, 7, 18, and 40. Add it all together you get 111. 450-111=339. There are 339 years when Israel was ruled by itself, that is to say by God appointed rulers, meaning by Judges and the men raised up to relieve foreign oppression and bring rest.

    Which brings me to the 480 years of 1 Kings 6:1. The big question here is what is under consideration? What happened at the Exodus? Israel came out from Egypt and became their own free nation, ruled by God. He begins at that point and counts 480 years to the 4th of Solomon when the temple construction began. He does not start earlier when Israel was under foreign oppression in Egypt. It seems to me that he is counting years when Israel was free from foreign oppression. All told the entire period is 594 years. That is 40 years to the entering of Canaan, 6 years of conquest, 14 years till the Judges period begins, 450 years of the Judges, 40 years of Saul, 40 years of David, and 4 years of Solomon. Now we subtract out the years of illegitimate rule. We have 111 years of servitude and 3 years of usurped rule by Abimelech in the Judges period. 594-114=480.

    We see here where all the numbers add up perfectly. There are no approximations, no gaps, no guessing at dates. Everything lines up perfectly and is self checked. Best of all, it all comes from the text. It doesn't rely on Josephus or Ptolemy or Ussher or Egyptologists or ancient chronologers or modern scholars. It relies only on having a bible and reading it to get these dates, following by some easy mathematics.
     
    #38 RAdam, Apr 9, 2010
  19. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    All I can say is, that's messed up!

    1 Kings 6:1 says it was in the 480th year since the exodus. I take these to be actual years, just as I take Solomon's 4 years and David's 40 years and Saul's 40 years to be actual years. At the very most, there were only 396 years from the Exodus to the coronation of Saul. Anything else is simply "new" math, which I guess is what they're teaching our young ones today.
     
    #39 jonathan.borland, Apr 9, 2010
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    All I asked was to try to fit 450 years into the period of the judges. Start with firm historical date of 1385 BCE and death of Joshua. Go for it.

    You can't.

    Oh, you can add the wilderness wandering. You can add Saul and part of David's reign. Talk about lying numbers . . .

    But if you misinterpret the 450 year reference (like some have done) and not read the simple sentence structure, thinking it is for the era of the judges, you simply can't put 450 into 350.

    Not "new" math. It's "no" math.

    Why defend a poor translation/understanding of this and apply the number to the sentences following when the obvious/exact figures work for the information Paul just gave?

    "The God of the people Israel elected our fathers and exalted the people in the years living in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm brought them out of it and for about the span of 40 years He bore with their manner of life in the desert. Then, having destroyed 7 nationss in the land of Canaan, He divided by lot to them the land. And after these 450 years He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. Then they asked for a king . . "

    (Literal word-for-word from the inspired Greek text)

    If one takes the Anglican Version reading and constues the 450 years to come AFTER the conquest and division of the land and ending with Samuel, we're back to closer to 300 years. Doesn't make sense and isn't, of course, true.
     
    #40 Dr. Bob, Apr 9, 2010
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