The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

A. If it rains Thursday (25 Sept);
then I will celebrate my birthday.

This statement A is TRUE

B. If it rains NOT Thursday ;
then I will celebrate NOT my birthday.

This statement B has a truth value independant
of statement A. In this case, statment B is
true also -- tee hee, i plan to celebrate
my birthday on Thursday rain or not!!!!

Matthew 24:13b (KJV1873):
... he who endures to the end shall be saved."

In the form of statement A:
If he endures to the end;
Then he shall be saved.

Recall that the truth value of a statement B
is independant of the truth value of statement A.

Statement B:
If he endures NOT to the end;
Then he shall NOT be saved.

Statement A comes from God's holy written word, the Holy
Bible, Statement A is true.

Statemetn A is frequently assumbed to be "true",
but that does not logically follow from statment A
being true.

Can you prove indepentantly of Matthew 24:15 from
the Holy Bible that if a person endures to
the end, then he shall not be saved?

 

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Hi Tim Too,

Very good stuff brother. I too used to believe in pre-trib rapture and then mid-trib was where I was starting to lean.

I have heard and read both with very good points being made for both.

The verse in the book Thess. where the dead in Christ shall rise first (resurrection) and we who remain will be caught up (Raptured) with them in the air and forever be with the Lord, happening either pre-trib or mid-trib just dont line up with the verse in Rev 20:4-6

"And I saw the thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them, and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Christ, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had recieved his mark upon thier foreheads, or in thier hands"

(now the beast or the mark arent going to happen until midway in the tribulation, from my understanding)

" And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"
Verse 5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first ressurection."

(Now if the first resurrection is pre or mid-trib, then this verse wouldn't make any sense)

Verse 6
"Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection....."

Dig in brothers and sisters, for from what I read, we are going to go through this. But God will not desert us as a matter of fact I personally believe we shall see God in a way generations before us havent.

And you are right to say that many will be decieved into taking this mark especially those who dont believe we are going to be here when it is demanded.

I have yet to read the rest of these post, for as soon as I seen yours I felt compelled to respond, but I do look forward to reading the rest.

Great Post Tim!

God bless

 

How could these be pretribulation saints if they come out after (they weren't there before)the great tribulation?

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]Amen Tim ,

Also how could they have refused the mark when it wasnt even offered or should I say demanded before midway through.

Also the mention in thessalonians mentions a resurrection, now if this is the first resurrection and is pre-trib, then it would make the verse in Revelation 20:4-6 not at all fit for it says that the first resurrection is after the tribulation and before the thousand years.

 

JESUSISGOD2: "I too useed to believe in pre-trib rapture"

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:15 again.

Greetings brother Kevin.
May God be good to you!
" ... don't line up with this verse in Rev 20:4-6"

Obviously you don't know the first thing about
the word "FIRST". In fact Revelation was the FIRST
pretrib rapture roof text in my studies of the
pretribulation rapture theory. I became pretrib
in April 1952 when i was saved. I've been pretrib
all since and am just as saved today as i was
then and just as hopeful of a pretribulation rapture.

I beleive the "first resurrectioN" to be all the
resurrections of the just (we are, BTW justified only by
Jesus and not anything we have done ourselves).
The implied second resurrection i believe to be the
resurrection of the unjust.

The English term "first" (and it's similar Greek surce
word) is never exclusive. If you want to talk about exclusion
you have to say "first and only".

Here is some information about five resurrecitons:

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 17 July 2002;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Only 5 resurrections? What about the resurrection of Lazarus? How about the resurrection of Disco, or bell-bottom pants? Surely there must be lots more resurrections in there somewhere if you use your imagination, and we can already tell you have a vivid imagination if you can find pre-trib in the Bible.

 

Amen Npetreley,

Not only are you a bit rude when you reply Ed but are a bit decieved as well, in believing in the pre-trib rapture.

I realize you have been saved since 1952,(it has been brought up numerous time in your post I have read) but age doesnt make one any wiser if they dont listen to what the scriptures say.

You mentioned 2:15 and I know what it says, but if those traditions are contrary to Gods word, should I still hold to them?

It would really be a beautiful thing if the pre-trib doctrine were correct. But its not.

To say that 1 Thess 4:16 and Rev 20:5 arent in line with each other is pretty amazing.

1Thess says the dead in Christ shall rise Now correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that resurrection? if so then how do you justify Rev 20:5 where it says this is the first resurrection? and this first resurrection is clearly after the great tribulation?

Also notice in Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoyce, and give honor to Him; for the marriage of the lamb has come..."

I really hope you are right of the pre-trib rapture, but hope without truth is false hope. The Key to our hope is to be ready in season and out.

Another thing it talks of in Rev 20 are the ones who are in the 1st resurrection have refused to bow down, worship the image, or recieve the mark. These are Christians God is refering to here as they will put put to death for thier testimony.

What testimony? The gospel, salvation from ones sin, etc.. why werent these raptured?

 

This is an excellent way to illustrate a principle by which one can know pre-trib is flawed. First, let's ask and answer one of the most basic questions about life:

Q. Why are we here?
A. To glorify God.

Now let's apply that axiom to the different types of events described in Revelation:

Q. Does it glorify God if we patiently endure tribulation like pressure to take the mark of the beast?
A. Yes, I would say it certainly glorifies God, since the only way we could endure such things is through His strength.

Q. Does it glorify God if we are killed in a brutal way for refusing to take the mark of the beast?
A. Yes, it is a testimony to our faith, which is a gift from God.

Q. Does it glorify God if we are killed by a falling mountain, or any of the other plagues and horrors delivered through the time of God's wrath?
A. No. We are not the objects of God's wrath, and we are not appointed to wrath, so it would be a demonstration that God does not honor His own word if we were killed in His wrath.

The Bible teaches a chronological distinction between a period of tribulation (such as the kind that comes from satan, the antichrist, false messiahs, etc.), after which there is a period of God-directed wrath (such as meteors the size of mountains falling into the sea, the "bowl judgements", etc.).

And what do you know? The Bible also clearly teaches that when the time of tribulation is over ("Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."), and God's wrath begins, that's exactly when the people from every nation -- too numerous to count -- suddenly appear in heaven.

Where did these people come from? They came out of the great tribulation. They were spared wrath.

----

One more thing -- Yes, it would be sort-of a beautiful thing to be spared the great tribulation. But the failure to see how enduring the great tribulation is perhaps more beautiful is precisely why pre-trib strikes me as being terribly man-centered and not God-centered.

Please don't misinterpret what I'm about to say as "holier than pre-trib", because I'm personally a total wimp when it comes to enduring hardship. I have nothing about which to boast. When things get tough, I'm the first to ask, "why are you doing this to me, God?"

But in the long run, I can often see how God glorified Himself by sustaining me through a very difficult situation. And that is a very beautiful thing, too. So why does anyone think this principle is any different when applied to great tribulation?

 

To address the question about Revelation 20, notice the order of events. The resurrection of Revelation 20 happens after Revelation 19. Christ comes in Revelation 19. The resurrection happens in Revelation 20. Therefore, the Revelation 20 resurrection happens too late to be the rapture resurrection.

 

Rapture does not separate from resurrection.

1 Thess 4:15-17 tell us, rapture will not be occur till AFTER resurrection occur first.

So, therefore, Rev. 20:4 tells us that the saints(or Christians) will face Antichrist first before the resurrection comes.

Word, 'resurrection' does not appear in book of Revelation TILL Rev. 20:4.

THere is no resurrection in Rev. 4:1-2.

Rev. 4:1-2 speak of John's vision, that he was called up alone to see the things in the heaven his vision, that what the word, 'revelation' for.

Nothing in the context of Revelation chapter 4 speak of the second advent or gathering together or resurrection either. Chapter 4 talks about the activity around God's throne in the heaven.

The Book of Revelation tells us, that the Christians shall suffer persecutions and shall overcome them under the Antichrist's reign before Christ comes.

Rev. 20:4 proves us, that Christians will face Antichrist first before resurrection come, you cannot deny it. God's word says so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Sounds to me like a case of "cut and paste."

Just because two places use the same words or phrases does not mean that they are talking about the same thing. I may run a mile, my wife may get a run in her hose, Arnold may run for governor of California, you could run to the store, but we are all doing different things descrided by the same word.

Kapish?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

DeafPosttrib: "1 Thess 4:15-17 tell us, rapture will not be occur till AFTER resurrection occur first."

Yes. Both raptures will be preceeded by resurrecitons:
the rapture before the Tribulation Period, the
rapture after the Tribulation Period.

DeafPosttrib: "THere is no resurrection in Rev. 4:1-2.

Rev. 4:1-2 speak of John's vision, that he was called up alone to see the things in the heaven his vision, that what the word, 'revelation' for."

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!

We note however that Rev 4:1 is a TYPE of the rapture.
This Rev 4:1 TYPE of the pretribulation rapture
happens between the Church age (Reve 2-3) and the
Tribualtion Period (Revelation 4-19).

DeafPosttrib: "The Book of Revelation tells us, that
the Christians shall suffer persecutions and shall
overcome them under the Antichrist's reign before Christ comes."

Your statement is an abomination to every Messanic Jew in the
Church Age and to every Physical Jewish Israeli elect saint who will
believe that Jesus is their true Messiah during the Tribulation
Period. Jews have been persecuted for 1600 years in the
Greek name of Christ. "Christ" is Greek for "chosen one of God';
"Messiah" is Hebrew for "chosen one of God". But "Christian" carries
a lot of negative baggage.

The New Testament tells us that the Gentile Age (Church Age) born-again
Christian elect saints will be raptured before the Tribulation
Period begins.

 

In Revelation 20:4 we see two gorups of
people from two differnt eras (yet they are
one in the FIRST RESURRECTION):

1. "I saw the thrones and theythat set upon them" --
these are the Gentile Agge born-again Christian
elect saints. There were raptured/resurrected
prior to the beginning of the Rapture Period.

2. "I saw the souls fo them that were beheaded
for the witness of Christ" - these are the
Tribualtion Period Jewish Israeli elect
saints. There were beheaded in the Tribulation
Period.

Note the same two groups of people as found in
Romans Chapter 11.

 

JesusisGod2: "to say that 1 Thess 4:16
and Rev 20:5 aren't in line with each
other is pretty amazing."

Nobody but you came even close to
saying it

JesusisGod2: " ... why weren't these
raptured at the beginning of the
Tribulation Period?"

They got saved after the Tribualtion
Period started. All the saved when
the Tribulation Period start get
rapatured/resurrected prior to the
Tribulation Period.

 

Any idea why God has a double-standard about how He handles the saints? After all, according to you, He plans to rapture every saint alive before the so-called tribulation period in order to spare them the hardship of the tribulation. But those unfortunate enough to be saved during the so-called tribulation period, well, tough luck for them. They've got to stick it out. You'd think a God who is capable of creating the universe, healing the lame and making the blind see would also be capable of making better, more consistent plans.

 

I'm glad you didn't mention anything about getting the runs. Whoops, I just did.

 

I have no idea.
Take the matter up with the Master.

BTW, i raised two kids.
I did not have a double standard.
I treated them different because
they were different.

 

If that's what the Bible actually said, I would.

So what you're saying is that God's promises only apply to those raptured saints, not to anyone who is saved during the so-called "tribulation period"? The promises sure sound like they apply to everyone, so I wonder why He didn't qualify them? So your pre-trib view not only paints God as unfair, but quite the underachiever, too, since He obviously neglected to mention the fact that His promises only apply to His children if they are born prior to a certain date.

Is that how you raised your children? You made promises to both of them but only fulfilled your promises to the one born before a certain date?

 

Here's another pre-trib puzzler. According to pre-trib rapture, the 24 elders in Revelation 5 are the raptured church.

After the great tribulation, John sees "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb". According to pre-trib, these people are those who are saved during the great tribulation.

Funny how John only sees 24 elders, which one must "interpret" (read into the text something that's not there) it to mean the raptured church, yet John actually literally sees an uncountable number of people just two chapters later.

Or perhaps it's a literal 24. Perhaps only 24 people are actually saved and raptured right before the so-called "tribulation period".

Yet the great tribulation manages to save millions if not billions of people. Sounds like Billy Graham has got it all wrong. Instead of preaching, he should go around persecuting people - according to pre-trib, it's a far more effective witnessing tool.

It's even more amazing that this uncountable number of people are saved without the help of the Holy Sprit! Pre-trib assumes that the Holy Spirit is removed during the so-called "tribulation period".

So that's the secret to evangelism, I guess -- take away the Holy Spirit and persecute people.

[ September 25, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

Npetreley: "According to pre-trib rapture, the 24 elders in Revelation 5 are the raptured church."

Correct statement: a significant minority of pretribbers
believe the 24 elders in Revelation 5 are the raptured church.

Npetreley: "After the great tribulation, John sees "a great multitude which
no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues,
standing before the throne and before the Lamb".
According to pre-trib, these people are those who are saved
during the great tribulation."

Correct statement: a minority of pretribbers believe the people
in chapter 7 of Revelation are those who are
saved during the Tribulation Period.

It is unlikely that more than 1% of pretribbers beleive both
these beliefs. So any conclusions in the previous post of
Brother Npetreley has no basis in fact.

I'll try to explain my personal pretribulation rapture beliefs:
The first half (3½-years) is called the Tribulation Period.
The last half (3½-yerars) is called the Great Tribulation Period.
There is a difference betweent time periods and conditions.
Uptopic i have a list of five different types of tribulation:
three conditions and two time periods. How anybody can get
conditions and time periods confused is beyond me, but i guess
it can happen when you are straining to make a point or two
in an argument.

I believe that the non-"Jewish Israeli elect saints" during the
Tribulation period will be counted in the hundreds.
The Tribulation period is about saving Jewish Israeli elect saints,
not stray Gentiles. And the non-"Jewish Israeli elect saints"
saved in the Tribulation period will nearly all be saved in
the first half (3½-years) NOT in the Great Tribulation Period,
as suggested by certain people who have no concept of pretrib.

 

Really? A minority of about 1% believe that?

Let's take a look at the text, shall we?

Now the Greek words for "come out of" is "ercomenoi ek". The word "ek" is simply "from" or "out of" and appears in countless places in the NT. The word "ercomenoi" only appears in this form in Mark 6:31, Luke 13:14, Luke 16:21, and Rev 7:14. In none of these cases is it ever used to mean "came at some point in the past". Therefore these people "come out of the great tribulation" means exactly that -- they were in the great tribulation and they came out.

That leaves you with only two choices: Either pre-trib is wrong, or these people were saved after the rapture. You can quibble about whether they were saved during your fictional "tribulation period" or during the "great tribulation", but that's irrelevant to my point. Either these uncountable people were saved before the rapture or after the rapture.

If they were saved before the rapture, then pre-trib is pure unadulterated error. If they were saved after the rapture, then the so-called "tribulation period" and/or the great tribulation turn out to be the most successful evangelistic period in human history, and all without the aid of the Holy Spirit, which pre-tribbers say is removed when the church is raptured!

[ September 26, 2003, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: npetreley ]