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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin, Aug 13, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps? Perhaps? PERHAPS?
    :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  2. natters

    natters New Member

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    Hi Martin,

    First, the passage does NOT say he takes us back to the Father's house. It says we will be with HIM. You are assuming he returns to heaven, the passage does not say that. You are assuming that the Father's house is stationary and unmoving, and the passage does not say that either. See just a few verses down, in verse 23. If "the Father's house" comes with Christ, then nothing in this passage goes against posttrib. If, however, the "Father's house" is unmovable in heaven as you assume, then what of the pretrib view that has us leaving the "Father's house" when Christ comes to earth?

    At the end of the trib, it's on earth.

    That is not "clearly" at all. Rev 19:9 only contains the announcement of the wedding supper, not the wedding supper itself.

    Judgment is different than wrath.

    Ah, you DO misunderstand what I was saying. I am not saying we cannot claim any of those promises, and I am not saying that the promises to the original listeners were false. I am saying that if we understand the promises to mean something that would have been false for the original listeners, then our understanding of the promise is wrong to begin with.

    Assuming the tribulation and the "day of the Lord" are the same thing as you indicate (which I don't believe), you think the falling away and the antichrist is revealed before the tribulation?
     
  3. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    natters said:
    the passage (Jn 14:1-3) does NOT say he takes us back to the Father's house. It says we will be with HIM. You are assuming he returns to heaven, the passage does not say that.

    ==Your right the passage does not directly say that. However it is my position that it is the natural understanding of the text.

    Why? Good question...glad you asked [​IMG]

    Jesus said that He was going to His Father's house to prepare a place for us:

    "In My Father's house are many dwelling places...for I go to prepare a place for you."

    The point is that there is plenty of room in the Father's house for all believers and that Jesus is preparing places for all believers. I doubt we would disagree on that. Ok...

    Jesus said that He was going back to the Father's house:

    "If I go and prepare a place for you"

    Jesus said that He would return from that place:

    "I will come again and receive you to Myself"

    Thus Jesus will come back and gather all believers to Himself (1Thess 4:13ff). Then He takes us to be where He is:

    "that where I am there you may be also"

    Jesus is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for believers and He will return to take believers to Himself to be where He is. Where is that? The Father's house.

    _______________________________________

    You said:
    You are assuming that the Father's house is stationary and unmoving, and the passage does not say that either.

    ==The Father's house, I believe, does move. However this does not occur until after the Return (Rev 21:1ff).

    __________________________________________

    You said:
    See just a few verses down, in verse 23. If "the Father's house" comes with Christ, then nothing in this passage goes against posttrib.

    ==Verse 23 says nothing about the Father's house.

    __________________________________________

    You said:
    If, however, the "Father's house" is unmovable in heaven as you assume, then what of the pretrib view that has us leaving the "Father's house" when Christ comes to earth?

    ==Christ Himself is not the Father's house.

    ____________________________________________

    You said:
    That is not "clearly" at all. Rev 19:9 only contains the announcement of the wedding supper, not the wedding supper itself.

    ==This is starting to go in circles. The Bride is ready and it is time for the wedding feast. Nothing in the verses indicates that it does not occur at this point.
    _____________________________________________

    You said:
    Judgment is different than wrath.

    ==Ok, it is all God's wrath. The Seals are the wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:17, Zeph 1:14-18), the trumpets are the wrath of God, as are the bowls (Rev 15:1,7). I see no justification in the text for restricting the wrath of God since the whole thing is clearly the pouring out of God's wrath. For in the seven bowls the wrath of God is complete (Rev 16:1ff).
    ____________________________________________

    You said:
    Ah, you DO misunderstand what I was saying. I am not saying we cannot claim any of those promises, and I am not saying that the promises to the original listeners were false. I am saying that if we understand the promises to mean something that would have been false for the original listeners, then our understanding of the promise is wrong to begin with.

    ==Of course that would still force us to say that all promises to those first century believers about Christ's return to be false promises since the return did not occur. Rather those promises would only be false if the rapture did occur and they did not escape. As it is the rapture is still in the future and the promises about the rapture to them are to us. Why? Because the promises have yet to be fulfilled and are recorded in Scripture.

    _______________________________________-
    You said:
    Assuming the tribulation and the "day of the Lord" are the same thing as you indicate (which I don't believe),

    ==If you understand your Old Testament prophecy there will be no debate. The Old Testament "Day of the Lord" refers to a period of Judgment that is still future.
    ______________________________________


    You said:
    you think the falling away and the antichrist is revealed before the tribulation?

    ==The AntiChrist must be on the scene and working prior to the start of the tribulation (though probably not before the rapture).

    Martin.
     
  4. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    Notes on when will the bride be taken

    It has been commonly taught that the bride of Christ will be gathered to the Lord Jesus Christ just before the start of the seven-year tribulation period in the book of revelation. A number of scripture that many teachers have used to justify this error of teaching are as follows;
    1. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.
    Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    They state that when John says he heard a voice say, " Come up hither", that this therefore refers to the bride of Christ. But scripture clearly shows it to be John who was caught up in the Spirit and that there is no mention of the bride here.

    2. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    They teach here that this verse means that the bride will be raptured taken out of the time of temptation (which is also known as choosing to accept or reject the mark of the beast Rev 14:6-13). But scripture tells us that God will keep them from the hour of temptation, not take them from it. The word keep in Greek means;
    G5083 τηρέω, te¯reo¯, tay-reh'-o. a watch, to guard , by keeping the eye upon. When all of humanity in the world goes through the hour of temptation to either accept or reject the mark of the beast, the saints will be kept by God through it, God will as the Greek says watch and Gaurd them and that is from spiritual loss or injury to their souls for it is written;
    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    3. Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth forever and ever.
    It is commonly taught that the bride of Christ is known in verse 11 as the elders. But scripture tells us that they are elders not the bride, and that there are only 24 elders not tens thousands times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. The tens of thousands here are the angels of God as scripture makes clear by showing in verse 14 that there are only 24 elders. Scripture shows us clearly when we will be resurrected in the air to our Lord and for the marriage of the Lamb, let us look.
    Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
    Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
    Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
    Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
    Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
    Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
    Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
    Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
    Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
    Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odors, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
    Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
    Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
    Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
    Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
    Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
    Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
    Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
    Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
    Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    Here we read that babylon is fallen; Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    This will happen after the mark is accepted by the world and rejected by the true saints of Christ. The punishment to the world for receiving this mark will be the wrath of God as the angel pronounces before Babylon is judged;

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    These plagues of the seven bowls of Gods wrath will come in one day in one hour ;
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
    The seven plagues of Gods wrath must never be mistaken for the seven trumpets. These are separate events.
    The greatest proof that the bride of Christ will not be resurrected till after babylon is judged with the seven last plagues is the fact that the elders and the voice from the throne of God bear witness to this, let us look;

    Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
    Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    Here we read that Babylon has been judged and that they saw her smoke burning.

    Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
    Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
    Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    Here we read that even all the saints in time past that have gone before and the elders and the beasts rejoice over babylon being judged by telling us that God hath ( hath being in past tense ) judged her. Verse 2 did not say "will judge her but hath judged her". This is very important to notice because after we are told that the whore hath been judged and that her smoke rose up for ever straight after these sayings in chapter 19 we are told that a voice of a great multitude and of many waters announce that the marriage of the Lamb is come and His wife hath made herself ready. This is clearly after Babylon has been judged and not before.

    Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    We are also told that that she should be arrayed in fine linen;

    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    The saints putting on this fine linen after babylon is judged as scripture tells us, is also seen in these following passages of scripture;

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Paul quotes this saying out of the book of Isaiah. In the book of Isaiah this verse is quoted clearly after the judgement of babylon as well, chapters 24;25;and 26; are clearly about the judgement of babylon and the Lord coming for His people Israel and the saints that are left for it is written; 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.

    Isa 25:2 For thou hast made of a city a heap; of a defensed city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
    Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

    After the whore is judged and the Lord gathers His bride then comes the battle of Armageddon;

    Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
    Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    In conclusion to this, we are told clearly in scripture In Rev 19; that the marriage of the Lamb and His bride (which is also known as the resurrection) will not be till after Babylon is judged and that is after the bowls of Gods wrath are poured out on Babylon, which is the world. The saints of God will not be going through the wrath of God but they will be killed for not receiving the mark as is written;
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.

    To have your head cut of or die for not taking the mark is not the wrath of God it is as Paul says;

    2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    And as John tells us he heard;
    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Many this present day in Christ die an example of this is as follows;
    Brought to you by The Voice of the Martyrs
    Damare, a small Sudanese boy was taken as a slave and forced to tend camels after his village was attacked by radical Muslims. One day Damare, who had been raised in a Christian home, snuck away from his master to attend a church service. When he returned, his Muslim master was waiting for him and accused of committing a deadly act, "meeting with infidels." The master then dragged Damare into a field where he nailed his feet and knees into a large board while the boy cried out in agony.

    Damare was miraculously rescued and has told The Voice of the Martyrs that just as Jesus was nailed and forgave, he forgives also. What bold faith from a simple Sudanese boy!

    Damare is not alone in the persecution he has endured. The Muslim government of Khartoum in the North has declared a jihad, or holy war, against the mostly Christian South. Omar Hassan al-Turabi, an Islamic leader, has stated that anyone who opposes Islam "has no future." Since 1985, approximately two million have perished due to the genocide. Families in the South are terrorized-fathers killed, mothers raped, and children sold into slavery. Yet in the midst of these atrocities, the Christians in Sudan remains strong, worshiping their Savior and leading others to Him. Thankfully, in recent months the onslaughts have begun to subside and peace talks are on the table.
    The accepting of the mark will be the result of what we are told in the scriptures, it will show who is of the Lord and who is not. Many who were thought to be of Christ will accept this mark they are commonly know as the inward Judas.The mark will cause many families to be divided and put to death by betrayal of loved ones thought to be of Christ.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    Brothers and sisters please see the facts, we will not be gathered to the Lord till after Babylon is judged. It must be remembered that saints not accepting the mark is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is when Babylon is judged. A further and more complete doctrine of this is presently being worked on, I do hope this little piece of manna has been help to many. Yours in Christ brother Graham Sly.
     
  5. natters

    natters New Member

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    Yes, it is the natural understanding of the text if you presuppose pretrib in the first place.

    Yes, but where is he when he comes back? He's here in the posttrib view. All you are saying is that the posttrib view doesn't mesh with the pretrib interpretation of the passage, not with the passage itself if pretrib is false.

    Argument from silence is not support.

    No. Judgment is different from wrath.

    Again with the "clearly". [​IMG] If it was so clear, pretrib would have been the only view of the church throughout history, and we would not be having this discussion.

    You still do not understand. Again I ask you for a specific example, so I can demonstrate.

    I don't really like responding to arrogance, sorry.

    That's not really what I asked.
     
  6. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    I said:
    If you understand your Old Testament prophecy there will be no debate.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You said:
    I don't really like responding to arrogance, sorry.

    ==Thats nice. However when you look in the Old Testament and do a study on the Day of the Lord you will see that it refers to a time-period of judgment.

    When in John 14 does Jesus say He is coming back?

    "I will come again and receive you to Myself" -John 14:3

    I quoted this in my reply (a part you left out). I said:

    Jesus said that He was going to His Father's house to prepare a place for us:

    "In My Father's house are many dwelling places...for I go to prepare a place for you."

    The point is that there is plenty of room in the Father's house for all believers and that Jesus is preparing places for all believers. I doubt we would disagree on that. Ok...

    Jesus said that He was going back to the Father's house:

    "If I go and prepare a place for you"

    Jesus said that He would return from that place:

    "I will come again and receive you to Myself"

    Thus Jesus will come back and gather all believers to Himself (1Thess 4:13ff). Then He takes us to be where He is:

    "that where I am there you may be also"

    Jesus is going to the Father's house to prepare a place for believers and He will return to take believers to Himself to be where He is. Where is that? The Father's house.

    You also ignored my points about the tribulation being a time of wrath.

    Martin.
     
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    OldRegular -- don't take my words out of context, please...I'm sorry 'perhaps' upset you. It was rhetorical.

    And to all of you, what was it the church at Thessalonica was so upset about having missed? All your arguments about all the other points are avoiding this. Why?
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Good question, Sister Helen! [​IMG]

    Here is the answer, prewritten* by Ed:

    (Obviously Sister Helen was NOT the first
    person to ask this quesiton :rolleyes:
    -----------------------------------------


    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the pretribulation
    rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the pretribulation Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  9. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    2 Thess 2:3 about the rapture?

    Apostasia? How can a word that can mean falling away or rebellion ever be construed to mean a rapture?

    I'm even pre-trib, and I don't follow.

    Respectfully, I dissent.
     
  10. natters

    natters New Member

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    Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood [what I believe to be the 6th seal], before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    Yes, I already understand the pretrib take on the passage. Again, I disagree with it.

    No, I address those points earlier and didn't feel like going over them again.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The greek can mean a falling away, defection or removal of christianity. If the proper meaning is a "removal or defection of Christianity" this could mean both a falling away of faith or the literal removal of christianity from the world (rapture).

    It depends on the view you hold, but I believe christianity is growing in the opposite direction throughout the world through missionaries. To me this word is literal for the "defection / removal of christianity" from the world. With the Church gone and no Holy Spirit left on earth, JUST IMAGINE the evil and hardship to come! This, and only this, WILL BE the great tribulation the Bible tells us will be like none other this wold has ever seen or ever will see!
     
  12. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    The Rapture
    by Aristobulus (Roger) Allen

    The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. The idea that Jesus Christ will return for His true Church just before the beginning of the Great Tribulation in a secret gathering or "catching away" was an important part of Darby's teaching. The movement in which this teaching began originated in small groups in England and Ireland about 1828 and by 1831 was part of the official teaching of the Plymouth Brethren. By 1860 the "rapture" had made its way to the United States.

    In the late 1800's, America was fertile ground for a wide variety of religious extremists, most notably the Adventist movements. These movements, which produced new denominations, sects, and cults, almost always had as one of their chief tenets the belief that Christ was going to return to earth "very soon" and that they could tell you when. As the eschatological and apocalyptic teachings of the Plymouth Brethren entered this mix of religious fervor, some of their teachings became a permanent fixture within the newly formed sects. Among the many heresies of the "brethren" the Rapture was the most successful. It even went on to affect millions of people in denominations which had not yet been formed. Two examples of this are the Assemblies of God and the United Pentecostal Church which were not founded until early in the 20th century. At about this same time the Rapture made its way into the theology of the Southern Baptist Church, which had not previously known of the teaching.

    Today, prophecy pundits and "end-time" revivalists preach the Rapture as if it were established dogma from the time of Christ until the present. The truth is that the first historical reference to the Rapture doctrine comes from the Plymouth Brethren. Not only is the Rapture not found in the teachings of the Church, but even "end-time" heretics throughout the centuries never dreamed of proposing such a novel idea. For example, the 4th century Montanists, who preached both pre-millenialism and that they knew when Christ would return, never ventured so far as to create another 2nd coming of the Lord in a secret rapture.

    In all the writings of the Scriptures, the Early Fathers, and the Ecumenical Councils, there is no mention of two 2nd comings of Christ. In fact, the 2nd Ecumenical Council definitively states and places in the Nicene Creed these words: "He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His Kingdom shall have no end." This council of the Church, held in A.D. 381 in Constantinople, pronounced for all time what we as Christianis believe about the 2nd coming of Christ. The Fathers of the Church wanted it to be crystal clear that when our Lord returns (a time which only God the Father knows- Mark 13:32). He will establish His rule on earth forever, not merely 1000 years. The council did not condemn the Rapture heresy because the teaching did not yet exist. Moreover, there is no mention of the teaching in either the early Medieval period or the Scholastic era.

    One might think that the Rapture is the product of the Reformation, since almost all of its adherents are Protestants, but not so. The student searches in vain to find the Rapture doctrine among the writings of Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox. John and Charles Wesley know nothing of the theory. Even the Puritans (some of the most radical of the radical Protestants) never heard of or wrote about the Rapture. As a matter of fact, not only do the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Anglicans deny such a teaching but all "mainstream" Protestants do as well. The Rapture is not to be found in the doctrinal statements of Presbyterians, Lutherans, or Methodists (at least not in the main bodies of each of these groups). If any of their individual members embrace the Rapture theory, it is because they have been influenced by rapturist TV preachers or have read one of the hundreds of books written on the subject in the last 35 years. It is not in the teachings of their respective churches.

    It seems strange to me that the Lord would not reveal, by the Holy Spirit, a teaching which the end-time prophets of today preach as a foundational dogma and a forgone conclusion. Not until 1831 was this "new truth" revealed and not until the 20th century was it popularized. How is it that the Apostles and the Early Fathers overlooked such an important eschatological event? Why is it not clearly spelled out in the Scriptures? The obvious answer is this: THE DOCTRINE KNOWN AS THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH DOES NOT EXIST! Like all other heresies it was and is the invention of men, not the teaching of the Church. Rather than listen to the doctrines of men, let us pay extremely close attention to our Lord's own words in the Gospels.

    When Jesus taught His Apostles about His glorious 2nd coming, these are the words He used: "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be (Matthew 24:27)". In the book of Acts, St. Luke tells us that when Jesus ascended into heaven, and the Apostles were gazing upward as the Lord rose among the clouds, two men in white apparel (presumed to be angels) said these words: "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven (Acts 1:11)". We are told here in Holy Scripture that exactly in the same way Jesus ascended into heaven He will return to earth. In other words, He will return in the clouds in the sky. That description doesn't sound like a "secret catching away" but rather a dynamic 2nd coming!

    To be sure, there will be a catching away of the saints on earth but this happens at the last trumpet sound (Revelation 11:15). Writing to the Christians in Thessalonica, St. Paul tells us what the 2nd coming (Greek- parousia) is like. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)". The same words are used here to describe the catching up of Christians as is used to describe the 2nd coming of the Lord. Both occur in the clouds, in the air, and everyone on earth sees it happen. In other words, the so-called Rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ will happen at the same time.

    Perhaps the most vivid picture of our Lord's 2nd coming to earth is found in the words of St. John the Apostle. In the book of Revelation he writes: "Behold, He cometh with clouds and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, amen (Revelation 1:7)". Far from believing that the Lord will return "secretly" to rapture the Church 7 years before His 2nd coming, St. John says that every human being on earth will see the Lord descend from the clouds. Once again, here are the words of the Nicene Creed, the symbol and statement of faith for all Christians: "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kindgom shall have no end." The 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be in glory, not in secret. Then the Prince of Peace shall establish true peace, joy, and righteousness on the earth; "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Habakkuk 2:14)".

    Finally, the Rapture doctrine is dangerous because it teaches Christians that they will be spared all tribulation, wrath, and danger in the last days. The need for urgent preparation of one's heart and soul is diminished because Christians will be secretly taken away from all that pain. No need to worry, we'll just fly away. Unlike the Early Christians, most of whom were murdered by this world's authorities, the end-time Christians have a get-out-of-tribulation free card called the Rapture. Remember the words of St. Paul, "All those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 2:12)." And lastly, the words of the Lord in John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Must you continue to post this garbage post on every rapture thread? Isn't double posting illegal on the BB?
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    It must be getting close to the Rapture, every forum I am a member of is being attacked by Post-Tribbers, with a vengeance it seems.

    :D

    Please quit posting such long articles. Give links, or break these into smaller sections.

    I am pre-trib, but would not feel bad to accept at least a Mid-week or Mid=Trib position.

    I find no reason to disassociate or disfellowship because of differences in these understandings.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The BB now has way to many Eschatological topics.
    I'm spending more time on Eschatology than
    working :(

    I'll be responding to these and other matters
    at this location:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350.html
    Click it and check it out.

    (BTW, the non-baptists seem to be more
    congenial than baptists anyway :confused: )
     
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