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The rapture

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Bro. Lee, Jul 25, 2001.

  1. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Hear ye pretribbers:

    I thought you hated the Pentecostal phenomena of speaking in tongues. Well, that's just how the doctrine of pretrib started, through the speaking in tongues of one Margaret MacDonald in the 1830s. This is a fact which no serious historian has been able to disprove. Here a quote from the Rev. Irving of the heretical, occultic, Catholic Apostolic Church of Scotland, the church where the doctrine was born:

    "Margaret was also particularly open to the occult. Robert Norton wrote of her and a friend, ‘I have seen both her and Miss Margaret Macdonald stand like statues scarcely touching the ground, evidently supernaturally’. Andrew Drummond tells us that Margaret’s close friend Mary Campbell practiced automatic writing and had intense psychical power and was a medium. Margaret also predicted that socialist Robert Owen was the Antichrist at the time she had her pretribulation vision.(1) Margaret herself began to speak in tongues about four months after her vision in August 1830."

    Okay, so I would pretend that I am pretrib. Of course, I would have my own scriptural proof to back me up. But again the above facts would make me extremely careful and very WARY.

    I see the hand of Satan here.
    :rolleyes:
     
  2. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Robert,

    Same ol' same ol'. You must be desperate to resort in your argument to linking pre-tribers with a questionable character. You can't support your side of the debate with sound doctrinal reasoning, so you start throwing out names. I'm a Florida State football fan, and you know what? I'm sure there are FSU fans who are real jerks, but that doesn't deminish my loyalty one bit.

    You've used this argument before, as well as the satanic overtones one; get a new one! :eek:
     
  3. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Dear "escapist" pretribbers:

    The Scriptures establish a consistent pattern that is NOT escapist:

    Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

    Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

    Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

    Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

    Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

    Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

    Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

    Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

    So you see, look at the biblical record, it is not God's natural tendency to "whisk away" his saints from trouble. The record shows that he makes his saints pass through them.

    The only escape that He guarantees us is "escape" from eternal punishment.

    The pattern. The record. The events. The Scripture.

    :eek:
     
  4. For His Name

    For His Name New Member

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    Robert .... AMEN and AMEN ... Somehow you can take my words and make them make sense .. ok we don't agree on all points but your post is right on.

    The previous post made to me with the Daniel reference ... Daniel is the oversee-er of Rev. Daniel is the distant future .. not the past.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The only escape that He guarantees us is "escape" from eternal punishment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Unless you accept 1 Thess 5:9 as actual Scripture instead of fallacy. Study the context and the only conclusion you can come to is that the wrath is the tribulation wrath from which we are saved. This lends weight to the interpretation of Rev 3:10 that the church is taken out of the tribulation.

    Once again, dealing with Scripture would help here instead of just making straw men and knocking them down. Why don't you explain 1 Thess 5:1-11 verse by verse. That would be an exercise worthy of your time.
     
  6. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Amen bro Larry!

    Cummon Robert, exercise a little scriptural discernment for once, instead of machine gunning innuendos. The "escapest" label is merely a childish inflamatory remark that carries no weight or credence. You've got a little growing up to do if you want to debate intelligently.
     
  7. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Pastor Larry:

    1st Thess 5:9 says, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    The above verse is actual scripture and not fallacy. But I'm sorry, the wrath which is referred to above is not "escapist wrath" but eternal punishment. The above verse is actually saying--either you receive salvation or you suffer eternal damnation.

    Its partner verse is Romans 5:9 which says, "Since we now have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by God's wrath through him!"

    No rapture in Romans 5:9; no rapture in 1st Thess 5:9. (I guess they are really partner verses since they are both 5:9 [​IMG])

    Perhaps, maybe, somehow...if someone looks at 1st Thess 5:9 hard enough, real hard enough, for several hours, if not days, a rapture could be found.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

    Unless you accept 1 Thess 5:9 as actual Scripture instead of fallacy. Study the context and the only conclusion you can come to is that the wrath is the tribulation wrath from which we are saved.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    :eek:
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the wrath which is referred to above is not "escapist wrath" but eternal punishment. The above verse is actually saying--either you receive salvation or you suffer eternal damnation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Why?? BEcause you say so? You certainly made not textual or contextual arguments for that. It looks like you used your concordance to find another use of the word "wrath" and assume that solves the point.

    Apparently we missed communications somehow. What I was encouraging you to do was a verse by verse explanation rather than a bold assertion with no support. Tell us from the context why you believe it is eternal wrath.

    You can assert all day long that v. 9 is eternal wrath. The problem is that the preceding eight verses do not lend themselves to that interpretation. That is why I asked for you to do a verse by verse exposition. Context is what defines what a word means and when you refuse to deal with context, you greatly limit your chances of properly understanding the text. But since you do not say what you think peace and safety are, what the thief in the night metaphor means, what the sons of day/night, etc. are, we have nothing really to discuss.

    About the strongest point you can make in your favor is that it is 5:9 just like Romans is as you point out. Everything else in the context is against your position. But we will never know how you understand it until you explain it.

    [ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  9. bob walker

    bob walker New Member

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    Greetings in Christ. My name is Bob and I am a 4th year Baptist seminary student. I was asked by a brother to refute the post-trib rapture. I have studied pre-trib and mid and post trib, as well as escatology (end times) and dispensationalism. I tried and could not refute the post trib rapture as it is biblical. most of you take what your pastor says as gospel and will not examine for yourselves. most know more about the TV guide than you do about the Bible. I ask you this suppose that the pre trib rapture is false would you die for your faith? Jesus died for you are you living for him? will you die for him? why is it ok for other Christians to die for their faith and not the tribulation saints? 65 million christians died in the last 75 years or so under communism and they still are. it is ok for them to die but not us in the tribulation?
    :confused: your pastors get paid by the number of members they have. is it not in their best interest to tell people their families will not die in the tribulation, but will be raptured. :eek: why is it ok for all the apostles save 1 to die for the faith and not us in the tribulation? are we better than stephen? they claim this is Gods wrath! :confused: this is Satans wrath, and not God. we are spared the fate of eternal damnation, and not our flesh :) look up in a search engine like google the names of the likes of Ed Irving and Darby. Harry Ironside
    was pastor of moody church and he admitted the rapture was a new doctrine brought forth
    in the light (angel of light?) by Irving and darby. He lived in those days. No one wrote of the rapture prior to the 1800s no one.
    :confused: :confused: :confused:
    If this pre trib rapture is false as a prophesy what will you do? what will millions of christians do when they "miss the rapture"? will the antichrist say to them
    that Jesus was a false Christ? after all he said you would be raptured and he lied!!!
    so what will you do? Take the mark of the beast (microchip?) and follow the beast (to hell) or will you die for your faith? reread this again and think about this!!!
    :eek: satan is behind this doctrine I believe and many are deceived. Jesus warned about deception over and over....and over.
    there are too many warnings in the Bible for us not to be here if you read it. C.H. Spurgeon was pre-millinial and he was post trib as I am. ;) well if you take the mark of the beast you will go to hell and maybe you only thought you were saved. go to this web site to look at a good post trib review
    http://members.tripod.com/crossbearer-brian/id59.htm

    rapture doctrine

    :) truth my friends, truth. pray for the rapture but prepare for the tribulation.
    Ed Irving was the originator of the charismatic movement and he gave us the rapture doctrine.

    write me if you wish to Bob Walker

    bobwalkerkjv@baptistmail.com

    all I can say is this pray for the best and
    prepare for the worst. Spend some time reading and researching the scriptures and ask questions to your pastor and watch him explain them all away.
     
  10. bob walker

    bob walker New Member

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    For your information the word rapture is not even in the Bible.

    for that matter neither is the word
    IMMINENT in the Bible as in imminent any moment rapture.KJV that is the Bible!

    2 Thess.2:3,4 tells us the man of sin must first be revealed before we can leave here.

    so much for arguing over words that do not even appeart in the Bible [​IMG]
     
  11. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Hello Bob,

    Let's see, after you exhault yourself as a 4th year seminary student, you proceed to use no scripture to support your position. At your seminary, is it just a debate club, or do you all use Bibles?

    As for rapture and imminent not being in the Bible, neither is trinity. Does that mean you don't believe in the trinity either?

    As for your second post and 2 Thes 2:3-4, I don't get your strong stand from that verse. "That day" in this passage refers to "the Day of the Lord" which pre-trib and post-tribers will agree that the man of lawlessness must come prior to that. So you've added nothing to this debate but your unsubstantiated smug opinion!

    I've said it before but obviously it bears repeating again: the rapture cannot be proven or disproven from what is revealed about it in the scriptures. I believe there will be a rapture, but if I am wrong and find myself in the midst of the tribulation, it will not diminish my faith. I'll get excited because I've only got seven years to endure or get killed in the process; either way I'll be with Jesus. But because I don't believe that will happen does not make me an "escapist." At worst, it could make me a wishful thinker!

    But you post-tribers love your holier-than-thou attitudes, call us escapists, cultists, etc. Why can't you just agree to disagree, or at least do a better job of supporting why you think we are wrong by the scriptures, instead of trying to insult us?
     
  12. Mikayehu

    Mikayehu New Member

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    Wow, this post is up to 7 pages! For those of you who saw my posts very early on in this thread, you know I am post-trib (at least this year [​IMG]). But, I agree whole-heartedly with wellsjs' last post (everything in it). Prophecy is intentionally vagued. It is not meant to be dogmatically "charted." I hope there is a rapture; I personally just don't see enough evidence for it in Scripture, but I very well may be wrong. I definitely understand how others do see a rapture, though I do believe it to be a bit too much "wishful thinking." Anyway, the Lord will come and we may find out that we're all wrong. Eschatology is flat-out tough to even begin to grasp. In many ways, it is the culmination of your position on all of the Biblical doctrines.
     
  13. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Dear Bob:

    Most of the pretribbers on this board haven't got a clue where the word rapture came from. The word is often used in the occult sciences and means: "overcome by emotions, levitating, speaking in tongues, channeling."

    The fact that THE word is being used to describe pretrib is ENOUGH for a sane, thinking Christian to go on YELLOW ALERT, even RED ALERT.

    They even casually dismiss the admissions of personalities like Irving and Darby, among others, who say that the doctrine of pretrib is a rather new invention.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bob walker:
    For your information the word rapture is not even in the Bible.

    for that matter neither is the word
    IMMINENT in the Bible as in imminent any moment rapture.KJV that is the Bible!

    2 Thess.2:3,4 tells us the man of sin must first be revealed before we can leave here.

    so much for arguing over words that do not even appeart in the Bible [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  14. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO Member

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    Pastor Larry,

    Okay, so let's go back to 1Thess 1-8. It just plainly says that:

    1. Jesus will come back like a thief in the night.
    2. People, the unprepared, will be overcome by destruction.
    3. Christians are not in darkness; they should not be surprised.
    4. We are of the light, not of the darkness.
    5. We should be alert and self-controlled.
    6. We should put on faith and love as a breastplate...

    "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Now where in the universe do verses 1-8 hint that the "wrath" is the "tribulation." Not even the world's strongest electron microscope would show signs of a secret rapture here. Perhaps, if you look hard enough, too hard enough, to the point of straining one's eye muscles, perhaps one might find something of a secret rapture here.

    You speak about context, context, context. But if you really go by context, wrath is eternal punishment. What verses 1-8 really say is that we should not live like the pagans, but live as if Christ is coming anytime, and that we would be really worthy of his coming. Sorry, no secret rapture here.

    There is a big difference between proper context and contextisimusitis.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

    Tell us from the context why you believe it is eternal wrath.

    You can assert all day long that v. 9 is eternal wrath. The problem is that the preceding eight verses do not lend themselves to that interpretation. That is why I asked for you to do a verse by verse exposition. Context is what defines what a word means and when you refuse to deal with context, you greatly limit your chances of properly understanding the text. But since you do not say what you think peace and safety are, what the thief in the night metaphor means, what the sons of day/night, etc. are, we have nothing really to discuss.

    [ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear brethren,

    Someone pointed out that the word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible.
    Well, not in the English Bible but in the Latin Vulgate.
    I have read allegations of a Jesuit "rapture" theory long before the MacDonald/Darby incident and this etymology lends credence to a Catholic origin.

    The word has a Latin derivation meaning to catch, snatch, grab or drive away.

    The following is in keeping with the terminology of a "secret rapture" with the Vulgate abstraction following.

    KJV 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    ..scit raptum eiusmodi usque ad tertium caelum…

    KJV Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    ...virga ferrea et raptus est filius eius...


    Douay-Rheims Aprocrypha, Wisdom 4:10-11 (Presumably written of Enoch):
    10 He pleased God, and was beloved, and living among sinners, he was translated.
    11 He was taken away, lest wickedness should alter his understanding, or deceit beguile his soul.

    raptus est ne malitia mutaret intellectum...


    Other Vulgate passages:

    KJV Amos 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

    ...estis quasi torris raptus de incendio...

    KJV Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

    … tivae areae rapta sunt vento…

    For what its worth.

    HankD

    [ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Robert,

    You came a little closer in that you used a few words from the passages. However, you didn’t connect them to each other to show a flow of thought or an argument. I will give it a shot since you haven’t.

    First notice the difference between 4:13 and 5:1: One thing they didn’t know; one thing they did.

    V. 2 – Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. The DOL is the Day when God will “intervene in history to vindicate his chosen people, destroy their enemies, and establish His kingdom” (Moffat cited in Hiebert). It includes the tribulation period (1 Thess 5:2, 2 Thess 2:2; Matt 24:21/Jer 30:7) and the events preceding the eternal state (2 Peter 3:10). It is not the eternal state. It is an OT idea called the Day of the Lord, Day of Punishment (Isa 10:3); Day of the Wrath of the Lord (Ez 7:19); Great Day of the Lord (Zeph 1:14), Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (Mal 4:5), and That day (Is 7:18, Amos 9:11). It includes both judgment (Isa 2:12; 13:6; 34:8; Joel 1:15; 2:11; Obad 15-16, 18) and blessing (Obad 17, 19-21; Joel 2:18-32, 3:1; Zeph 3:14-20; cf. 1:14-18).

    v. 3 – “Peace and Safety” – When you read the words of Christ along with Revelation, you find that the days of the tribulation are anything but peace and safety. In fact, men are dying en masse, they are running and crying for the rocks to fall on them, and “if those days were not shortened” no one would survive. Hardly sounds like peace and safety. Thus whatever Paul is talking about must occur prior to the tribulation. Like a woman with child, the birth (coming of the DOL) will be inescapable. Once you are pregnant (barring abortion) you have only one choice: you must deliver. In like manner, the DOL has only one choice: It will come.

    v.5-8 – Paul changes his address from the people of vv. 2-3 that cry peace and safety yet are overtaken by the DOL to “you brethren” who are not in darkness and who will not be overtaken by the DOL. The reason is that they are sons of light. Unlike the sons of darkness, they do not revel in darkness and live the life of wickedness. Instead they are to be alert and sober, dressing in the armor of Christian hope.

    The people in vv. 2-3 will be overtaken from the supposed position of peace and safety, something hardly compatible with anyone’s reading of the tribulation judgments. The people in vv. 4-8 are not overtaken by it because they are sons of the light.

    v. 9 – Wrath in the tribulation. To say that Paul is addressing eternal judgment is out of context because Paul declares himself to be addressing the Day of the Lord. The two are distinct in Scripture I believe. There is an eternal judgment from which we have been saved. And it would entirely correct for Paul to say so. However, that is not what Paul is saying here I do not believe.

    In sum:

    1. “Peace and safety” are the characteristics just before the DOL overtakes people. The Tribulation is not a time of peace and safety.
    2. The DOL will not overtake the sons of light “for” (oti, v. 9) the Lord has not appointed them for wrath of the DOL but rather for obtaining salvation. The wrath that will overtake those believing they are in “peace and safety.”

    You say we should live as if Christ could come at anytime. I believe we should. The difference between us is that I actually believe he could come at anytime. You cannot believe that for there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls, along with 3 woes, that must take place before he can come.

    On 2 Thess 2 let me cite Hiebert:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Thessalonians, undergoing trying persecution, were being told by those promulgating this controverted teaching they were already in that great and terrible period of anguish and tribulation called the “the day of the Lord.” The persecutions they were enduring seemed to confirm this view. The natural reaction to this teaching was fear and agitation. The apostle’s appeals to them in the interest of the very hope of “our gathering together unto him,” set forth in the first epistle (4:13-18), not to allow themselves to be shaken and troubled by this unwarranted teaching. In what follows, Paul assures them that their suffering, severe though they were, were not to be identified with the persecutions associated with the Day of the Lord and the coming man of lawlessness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In other words, the Thessalonians assumed that they would be gone when the tribulation started and when someone came along and taught differently, Paul said “don’t think it came from us.” 2 Thess 2 presupposes that they Thessalonian believers thought they would be taken out before the world.

    To Bob, last night I typed essentially the same response that Wellsjs. I didn't post it because I didn't want to jump on you too hard. Speaking for myself, I appreciate your contributions to this discussion if you want to address Scripture and make your arguments from the text. Simply making blanket statements does not help. If you have done all the study as a fourth year seminary student, it should not be difficult for you to address the passages under discussion in a scholarly manner so that we can interact with your views.

    [ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    All,

    There is at least one other alternative to the Pre-tribulation; Pre-Millenial "rapture" position.

    Last-Day, Premillenial "rapture".
    I'll try to do some justice to this position
    with two key passages and an explanation of the "Last Day" Tribulationist view that the elect are put in a place of safety or hidden here on earth by angels from the wrath of God on or sometime shortly before that Last Day. Reminiscent of the First Passover and the protection of the firstborn.

    1) Matthew 13 The wheat and the tares and Jesus' explanation.
    2) Revelation 3:10 The Hour of Temptation.

    KJV Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    "from the hour of temptation (testing)" literally "out of the hour of testing".

    The final gathering…

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    First, the location of the gathering place of "my barn" is not identified.
    Second, Jesus doesn't do the gathering but the angels which He sends.

    Since the gathering of the wheat into Jesus "barn" is done by the angels it probably shouldn't be equated with the "house" and "mansions" of John 14:1-3 because…
    A "barn" is not a "house" or "mansion" but a temporary dwelling place.
    Jesus is not the one doing the gathering in Matthew 13 but the angels(although He sends the angels).

    It would seem possible then that the "barn" might be a temporary place of protection (not in heaven) from the reaping and burning of the tares (The wrath of God) to fulfil Revelation 3:10.

    Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
    21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    KJV Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


    …until the indignation be overpast.

    Then will come to pass…

    1 Thessalonians 4:15ff
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (not the gathering angels) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself (not the gathering angels) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    HankD
     
  18. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ROBERTGUWAPOMost of the pretribbers on this board haven't got a clue where the word rapture came from. The word is often used in the occult sciences and means: "overcome by emotions, levitating, speaking in tongues, channeling."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    I know exactly where it comes from, The Bible.
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1Thess 4:17
    726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo);
    from a derivative of 138; to sieze (in various applications):
    KJV-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Harpazo = Rapture. It appears 18 times in the NT. It has the meaning of a quick
    snatching away. For example, if you saw a child cross the street and saw a bus coming
    right for that child, you would run out into the street and “Harpazo” her away.
    Zodhiates Dictionary states: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To seize upon, spoil, snatch away.... Literally, to seize upon with force, to rob; ...to steal secretly...”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Your argument of it origination coming from someone speaking in “tongues” falls very
    short of any kind of defense. I could say that someone spoke in tongues and said that
    Jesus saves!, would that mean it is false?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ROBERTGUWAPO Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corinthians 11:23-27)? NO<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Another very poor argument. Jesus said that we would have Tribulation, everyone will. Some will have it more than others. But that is completely different than the “Great Tribulation” Bob Walker used this argument as well. What about all of the ones who are in the Church who have past on? Did they go through the Great Tribulation? NO! Did YOU spend time in the Lions Den? NO. Did you go through the fiery furnace NO! But if you did study your OT then you would find Robert that these men of Faith were SAVED from their tribulations. NO HARM was done to them. And Consider these two men from the OT Elijah and Enoch. What “special” thing happen to them?
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>bob walker I have studied pre-trib and mid and post trib, as well as escatology
    (end times) and dispensationalism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Perhaps I shouldn’t be so dogmatic, but I
    believe greatlyin the PreTribulation position. It would take a lot for me to change on that. One reason is because of my Dispenstional view. Bob this age of the Church was not even supposed to exist! The entire OT was Jewish, and spoke nothing of this “age”. Pastor Larry has already posted Scripture on the Day of the Lord. Read what this man has said, it is right! It bears repeating, the day of the Lord has nothing to do with
    the Church. It has everything to do with the Jews. The pre-request for Jesus to set up His earthly Throne as promised was only IF the Jews repent. When Jesus came the first time they did not repent, but killed their Messiah. Now the Kingdom has been postponed, (Matthew 13 parables come into play). Even the First Sermon by Peter did not portray a “Church age”. Even though it had just started. All this to say that Dispensationally speaking, this “Day of the Lord” is for the Jews not for the Church, which is ONE of the reasons we are escaping the “Wrath to Come”. Its not for us In fact, lets go a little further with this thought. Have you ever really studied Matthew 24? In is perfectly in line
    with Revelation 6 and in the breaking of the seals. Notice what Jesus taught in chapter 24, Matt 24:21
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    (KJV)

    Matt 24:13
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    (KJV)

    What is Jesus referring to here? Is that the Gospel of Christ? No its not. Its the Gospel of the Kingdom.
    Matt 24:14
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness
    unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    (KJV)

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>most know more about the TV guide than you do about the Bible. I ask you this
    suppose that the pre trib rapture is false would you die for your faith? Jesus died for you are you living for him? will you die for him? why is it OK for other Christians to die for their faith and not the tribulation saints? 65 million christians died in the last 75 years or so under communism and they still are. it is ok for them to die but not us in the tribulation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually most of us are spending time in the Word and discussing it here on this forum or spending time in lesson preparation for our Churches. I have no clue what’s on TV at any given time. I guess that I.T.F.S.KJB (Independent Temperamental Fundamental Separated KJBO) thinking aggravates me a bit. YES I would die for Jesus. At least that’s how I feel now. I love him greatly, and would do just about anything to defend His truths of the Word. But I know another person who felt that way too, His name was Peter.
    1 Cor 10:12
    12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
    (NIV) Yes there were great people of the faith who died for their beliefs. Some people die for their false belief. None of them went through what Jesus called the WORST time this world will ever see.

    Pastor Larry brought to our attention the difference between the trumpet calls. I
    did this in a paper I wrote. The trumpet call in Thess. is not even close to the trumpet calls for the second return of Christ. Jesus will appear in the air, rapture us out, the great tribulation will happen as it is for the Jews, people will be saved during that time, after its over Jesus will return to the Earth, with us, and we will rule for 1000 years.

    One final note, I am not dogmatic just thinking outloud. Perhaps lost people will hear this trumpet. People will see a disappearing right when it is happening. Even graves will be opened. Some people whom we have witnessed to will know that we were right after all. It wont be 100% secretive, but most people will attribute this great event to something else other than the truth.

    With love,

    Chet

    [ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  19. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Robert said, "most know more about the TV guide than you do about the Bible. I ask you this: suppose that the pre trib rapture is false would you die for your faith? Jesus died for you are you living for him? will you die for him?"

    You get the Sentimental Sensational Cop-out Plea Award for 2001. :D
     
  20. bob walker

    bob walker New Member

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    Look Guys I gave you a web site to look up about the origin of the rapture and you refuse. I give you a web site that does a great job of refuting the pre trib position and well, will you look it up and refute it?
    you say that you acknowledge that we as post trib could maybe be right. well then teach both positions in church why dont you ? but you will not and you label us a heretics. funny C. H. Spurgeon was a heretic....
    this is true due to the fact that I am always asked to leave when I point out Bible verses that make the teacher look like fools. No matter what we show you it will be explained away as this was for the jews and this is another dispensation and this and that...so it does not apply to us. look up last trump and first resurrection and see where they are located in the Bible and how they apply. we try to warn you and you will not hear. :( If people lose their faith due to you misapplying scripture well you will answer for it and not me. I have enough to answer for. by the way my seminary teaches pre trib and I asked questions and they did not reply. find me in the nicene or antinicene writings a pre trib belief.
    church books from the 1800s for the most part did not mention the rapture. why use a latin catholic Bible to support the word rapture? and imminent is not in the Bible either. the web site is on page 6 near the bottom. teach both sides in church this is not like denying the virgin birth,. yes trinity is not in the Bible...I do not use it, but Godhead is in the Bible and I use that. [​IMG] I try to warn you but you act like we are devils trying to deceive your flock.
    you will know what to do when the mark of the beast comes...but what about those who you taught????? :eek:
    if post trib is wrong what will we lose?
    if pre trib is wrong what will people do...
    lose their faith and take the mark and go to hell...
    am I therefor your enemy because I tell you the truth? :confused:
     
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