The Rapture

I missed the snow on Tuesday here in Heavenly Central OKlahoma (where Heaven is just a local call). But I kept a close eye on the weather. I noticed one day about last Tuesday or last Friday that all of the northern half of Florida was COLDER (under 31°F) than Bismark North Dakota! You had to get clear down to Kisimee to find a temp above freezing.

BTW, it is snowing 30 miles South and East of me. It is also snowing 1 to 3 miles above my head. The air has to fill with snow -- the ground humidity is 41%. It will have to move from 37°F to 16°F to snow here on the ground or else have some moist air blow about 10° to the left (north) from where it is blowing now. Oklahoma has weather; Florida has climate

Jesus is coming soon. I can't tell you the date. But it has been soon since the Church age began. Here is why Jesus tarries:

2Pe 3:13-15a (KJV1611 Edition):
Neuerthelesse wee, according to his promise, looke for new heauens, and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousnesse.
14 Wherefore (beloued) seeing that ye looke for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blamelesse.
15 And account that the long suffering of the Lord is saluation, euen as our

For if Jesus had not tarried until now - we also might have been forever lost.

" ... be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blamelesse ... " is the why of why eschatology is taught. If we aren't improving our serve and being more holy -- we aught not be bothering ourselves with all the eschatology.

 

Revelation 20:5 (quoted above, no source Bible suggested)
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

To what does 'this' refer?
In Other Words (I.E.) what is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

BTW, recall FIRST and ONE AND ONLY ONE mean two different things. 'First' can (and here does) represent a whole lot of things. Don't forget that elements both before and after the use of 'this' can be what 'first resurreciton' means.

Here is writing on Resurrections. Note also two raptures are also mentioned.
----------------------------------

Five Resurrections:

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)
Found in the Holy Bible & Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2004 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

405 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


/b]2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints[/b]
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 6 Oct 2007;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

​

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

True words for sure Ed, yes, true indeed. :godisgood:

 

I Do This at Least....

I do this exercise at least 20 times a day. I stopped doing it in the public after I was asked to leave our neighborhood CostCo. Apparently, it bothered the shoppers standing in the line to check out their purchases.

Pastor Paul :laugh:

 

:BangHead: Having trouble with double posts.

 

The A-mill doctrine is actually a quite old doctrine of hundreds if not thousands of years.

If we look at the Book of Revelation and also look at some of the history at the time that John was on the island by himself,we can find that his writings were censored before they were allowed to leave the island.The book,at least the majority is basically written in code and or symbolism.

It is not a book that is to be taken as literal as some want to do.It is a book that is to be taken spiritually.The Bible is spiritually written and spiritually discerned.

Jesus said that he would come and that it would be known from the east to the west,just as lightning.There will be a shout and those that are alive and remain shall meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be.

This is the end of time as we know it.

 

I was educated at a dispensational seminary (Dallas Theological, back in the days when Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost, etc., were still there), so I tend toward a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Without going into long explanations (I defer to those already debating), the belief seems to be largely an outgrowth of the dispensational system, especially their distinction between Israel and the Church.

Another thing that I have always thought supported the pre-trib position is that a lot of Scriptures will only "fit together" with the pre-trib model in view. Of course, if those passages are interpreted differently (for example, a preterist view of Matthew 24 as mentioned above), this argument begins to fall apart.

IMHO, the most well-founded doctrines are those based upon entire passages of Scripture rather than "proof texting." In the early 80s, Zane Hodges attempted this in a work entitled The Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, but I don't think the work has been widely distributed (I have it in a book of essays entitled Walvoord: A Tribute, which was given as a "thank you" gift to supporters of the seminary).

 

Rusty, Welcome to BB! :wavey:

We'd actually have a bigger board and an Eschatology section here if there were more informed opinions of what end times looks like. The other day I started listening to www.lwf.com (Dr Adrian Rogers) series on end times beginning with "The Future is Here" (Truly stirring message!).

Hearing is even gave me new inspiration that the tribulation is for Israel --- #1 because Jesus is seen as the "lamb" (sign) throughout and as a man. #2 because it is written to Rev 1:1 says "to show unto my servants." Parabolically, God's "servants" in the NT signify always Israel -- thus, the church will be raptured and it is Israel that needs this Rev 6-20 information!!

And just like this rapture thread, you won't find many watching current events like Sec. Rice's efforts this week to tie up one of the last thing needed before the tribulation, a "peace" that lets Israel walk up and down in [Ephraim's] name." (Zech 10:12) If it comes off, this could be the peace that AC confirms after the way of Zech 11:1-4 is over!

Anyway, glad to have you with us. raying:

skypair

 

//IMHO, the most well-founded doctrines are those based upon entire passages of Scripture rather than "proof texting." In the early 80s, Zane Hodges attempted this in a work entitled The Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, but I don't think the work has been widely distributed (I have it in a book of essays entitled Walvoord: A Tribute, which was given as a "thank you" gift to supporters of the seminary).//

Amen, RustySword -- you are so right on! :thumbs:

I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 5:11 to be the ultimate pretribulation passage. I have never read Hodges nor much of Walvoord.

Here is my examination of Matthew 24 showing it's support of the pretrbulation Rapture Event (resurrection followed immediately by a rapture)
-----------------------------------------

Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..
--------------------------------------------------
Of course, the end of the Church Age (time of the Gentiles) is near. So if these Matthew 24:4-14 signs begin to disappear -- the end of the Church Age is even closer.

 

John18: //The A-mill doctrine is actually a quite old doctrine of hundreds if not thousands of years.//

Define 'a-mill'. I'm post-mill so if I define it, others may have to redefine it. Note I will define it, if necessary. Thank you.

John18: //Jesus said that he would come and that it would be known from the east to the west,just as lightning.There will be a shout and those that are alive and remain shall meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be.

This is the end of time as we know it.//

I humbly think that deletes about 1/4 of all Bible prophecy. It seems like I've already precluded in this topic what you say in both these two paragraphs. Of course, I believe you have the right to your beliefs.

 

Whatever he is, we know he is not a Christian. If he knows about the "rapture" than he has heard the Word of God, and has rejected Jesus Christ. His beliefs mean nothing, and I personally don't care what he believes. We don't need "trash" entering into our thinking, as it is just llike putting a grain of dirt into a clear, clean glass of water. The water is forever after contaminated.

 

// I was educated at a dispensational seminary (Dallas Theological, back in the days when Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost, etc., were still there), so I tend toward a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture. //

Meanwhile, over at the BIG Seminary in Fort Worth (Southwestern) they were teaching a-mill (a-trib) - the world ends at the physical Jesus comes ONCE AND ONLY ONCE just like in the misunderstanding of Matthew 24:3 which says 'world' when it should have said 'age'. At least in the late 1960s when my Pastor went there that was what was taught. He is pre-tribulation Rapture Event now.

 

He claims the same things as do many Christians. He has Rejected the word 'Jesus' but not the person Jesus. He has rejected the word 'Christ' (as do many Hebrew Israeli Jews) but not the concept of the Hebrew.

Whatever he claims, you (all) will be falsely judged by the world what what he teaches. This is the way things go, I'm judged for what The Scribe believes; I'm judged for what Ituttut believes.

BTW, actually brown Hebrew Israeli Jews believe that when Hitler killed six million Jews that it was his Christian teaching that made him do it. And all who are called 'Christian' will be judged for what Christian Hitler did. So if you write where Jews might read, I recommend the use of 'Messiah' so as to minimize the offense instead of 'Christ'.


BTW, I probably don't believe in his 'rapture' either. I looked into his stuff and he doesn't even talk about the same 'rapture's that I talk about.

 

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

No need to mitigate the message to accommodate Jewish fables. The Cross is more offensive to them than Nazism.

 

Ed Edwards: //BTW, actually brown Hebrew Israeli Jews believe that when Hitler killed six million Jews that it was his Christian teaching that made him do it. And all who are called 'Christian' will be judged for what Christian Hitler did. So if you write where Jews might read, I recommend the use of 'Messiah' so as to minimize the offense instead of 'Christ'.//

Aaron: //No need to mitigate the message to accommodate Jewish fables.//

God says: 1 Corinthians 10:31-33 (KJV1611 Edition):
Whether therfore ye eat or drinke, or whatsoeuer ye doe, doe all to the glory of God.
32 Giue none offence, neither to the Iewes, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God:
33 Euen as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine owne profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saued.

I explained how to do what God said according to that which I have learned in the past 56 years in which I've been a Christian.

There is a tendancy of we humans to do this, according to Messiah Yeshua:

Mark 7:6b-13
Well hath Esaias prophesied of you Hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth mee with their lips, but their heart is farre from me.
7 Howbeit in vaine doe they worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandements of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandement of God, yee hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots, and cups: and many other such like things ye doe.
9 And he said vnto them, Full well ye reiect the Commandement of God, that ye may keepe your owne tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father & thy mother: and who so curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoeuer thou mightest be profited by me: he shalbe free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to doe ought for his father, or his mother:
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye haue deliuered: And many such like things doe ye.

One who presents a hateful message that one knows will be rejected so that a person you hate will be bound to eternal hell is NOT acting 'in Christ'. If a Jew finds the very title: 'Christ', odious, then I'll use 'Messiah' which is non offense. Those who choose NOT to act 'in Messiah' will be rebuked by Jesus, the Messiah, IAW Mark 7:13. You have been faithless over a small matter, you shall be ruler over nada.


What ever cheap excuse one uses to offend 'the least of these My brethren' you will have done it unto Messiah Iesus.