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Featured The scriptural and contextual reading of Lydia's heart

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Apr 22, 2023.

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  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    No, it's just that I would use the verses as proof of my position that you don't accept. And you have already said so. So where can we go from there? You haven't produced anything that Calvin said regarding Lydia that suggests any of the "Calvinistic" responses you started the thread with. You just said I don't know what I'm talking about. I tried even to be conciliatory and agree that sometimes Calvinists overdo the idea that everyone hates God and God hates them until they are suddenly regenerated as if a switch was flipped, with nothing in between, but you don't even acknowledge any common ground. So far, you haven't even come along with me enough to restate your idea that there is NO need for any internal working of the Holy Spirit necessary for someone to be saved. I keep giving you room to clarify thinking that we often don't say exactly what we mean when responding to so many people at once but it doesn't help. There is no sense going further.

    As far as the internal working of the Holy Spirit is concerned, the one thing I would ask you once again to clarify is this: Do I understand you correctly, that you believe that there is nothing wrong with us in our natural pre salvation state, that in any way inhibits us or prevents us from upon hearing the gospel, to come to Christ with saving faith? And if so, do you at least believe that the gospel itself, in a sense being authored by the Holy Spirit, at least has supernatural power to draw people to Christ?
     
  2. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me for butting in Dave but I asked you before to prove from scripture that the Spirit works in a man to produce life instead of the Spirit being the life of that which is working in the sinner to produce it. You have not done that, and for a very good reason. Your belief about this does not come from the scriptures but from somewhere else. Perhaps from those Calvinists and Reformed Baptists.

    Here are two or three questions for you along with Bible answers.

    1) what is life?
    Answer: .....the Spirit is life... Romans 8:10

    2) How do we get the Spirit?
    Answer: Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3) How do we get faith?
    Answer: Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    4) Who has the word of God?
    Answer: Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    5) What is most important and primary in our salvation?
    Answer: 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    So, the faithful preacher of the gospel of Christ, who possesses life, is of primary importance in the salvation of sinners.

    You Calvinists can harp on about pre world election and grace alone, and salvation being all of God, but the very first line in the salvation of a sinner is a man who will open his mouth and preach the saving gospel of Jesus Christ to sinners, which BTW, takes some time and effort on the part of the faithful preacher.

    1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
    6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
    7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
    8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
    9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    You see it takes time for the seed to germinate and after a man sows it, he can do nothing else. But contrary to the ignorant doctrines of Calvinism, God and man works together to get sinners saved and if you disagree with this, you cannot read the text, or I cannot.

    Mans part is to plant the seed and water it.
    God's part is to give the increase so it will bear fruit.

    Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    I might come back later to tell you some wonderful things I have learned about the seed.

    If Lydia did get saved here, which is probably the case, it was because she heard from Paul what God had said and without him coming by she would not have heard it and we would not have the story of Lydia today. Doesn't these conversion of sinners stories prove the point?
     
    #42 JD731, Apr 26, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26).

    The Evangelist’s Dilemma.

    Found in .pdf!! from: https://www.biblesnet.com/matt-waymeyer-evangelism-101-laying-the-foundation.pdf


    "The scenario is a familiar one. You present the gospel to an unbelieving friend or family member and he or she rejects it. That which is most precious in your sight is dismissed as irrelevant or discarded as untrue. Why is that? How can that be? Who could possibly reject so great a salvation?

    "The Bible has the answer. Scripture teaches that unbelievers are totally depraved. This means that even though man does not always act as wickedly as possible, the depravity so permeates his entire being that he is enslaved to his sin and inherently unable to respond to the gospel in faith and repentance.

    "The depravity of the unbeliever can be broken down into three areas:
    his mind, his heart, and his will.

    "His Mind: The unbeliever’s inability to respond to the gospel stems partly from the depravity of his mind. No matter how intelligent he may be, the unbeliever cannot understand or accept the things of God. He simply is not able, for his mind is depraved (Rom. 1:21, 28; 3:11) and defiled (Titus 1:15), and his understanding is darkened (Eph. 4:17-18; 2 Cor. 4:4).

    "The message of the gospel, Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, is foolishness to those who are perishing (1:18),

    for "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them…" (2:14).

    "He is unable to understand and accept the gospel of Christ, and therefore he is unable to respond to it.

    "His Heart: At the core of the unbeliever’s inability to respond to the gospel is the depravity of his heart, which is full of evil (Eccl. 9:3).

    "During the time of Noah, God "saw that the wickedness of man was great…and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5).

    "Time has not improved the condition of man’s heart—it is still continually and exclusively evil. The very desire of the unbeliever’s heart is to carry out the desires of the devil (John 8:44), for he is by nature a hater of God and a lover of wickedness (John 3:19-20).

    "He is hostile toward God (Rom. 8:7; Col. 1:21) and is, in fact, the very enemy of God (Rom. 5:10).

    "The unbeliever is unable to respond to the gospel because he does not want to turn to Christ (John 5:40) and is neither able to change his heart nor desirous of doing so (John 8:44).

    "His Will: The unbeliever’s inability to respond to the gospel is most overtly seen in the depravity of his will—that faculty by which a man chooses or makes decisions.

    "Simply stated, his will is enslaved to sin (Rom. 6:17, 20; John 8:34). The unbeliever does not submit to God’s law, for he is "not even able to do so; and [he] cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7-8).

    "He is unable to choose to do anything that is truly good (Rom. 3:12), for his only capacity is to do evil.

    "The depravity of the unbeliever’s will flows from the evil of his heart (Mark 7:21- 23).

    "Not only is his heart full of evil, but he is also enslaved to his various lusts and pleasures (Titus 3:3).

    "Just as an apple tree can produce nothing but apples, a man with an evil heart can produce nothing but evil (Matt. 7:16-18). He cannot produce what is good, not even a positive response to the gospel. "There is none who seeks for God" (Rom. 3:11).

    "If all this is true, how can an unbeliever choose Christ?

    "How can he respond to the gospel? He cannot, for just as a leopard cannot change his spots nor a man the color of his skin, neither can a man change—or even improve upon—the condition of his heart (Jer. 13:23).

    His will is enslaved to the evil desires of his heart.

    "He is not able to conjure up enough goodness within himself to choose Christ, for there is none there (Rom. 3:12).

    "He is spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13) and has no more ability to respond spiritually than a corpse has to respond physically.

    "The unbeliever cannot understand or accept the gospel, for it is foolishness to him; how then can he respond to it and believe in Christ as his Savior?

    "Every intent of his heart is evil, and he seeks not after God; how then can he turn to Christ for salvation and embrace Him as his righteousness?

    "He is enslaved to sin; how then can he turn from his wickedness to Christ and bow before Him as Lord?

    "The unbeliever is not able to please God, obey God, or do anything at all that is good; how then can he respond to God’s command to believe?

    "There is no fear of God before his eyes; how then can he humble himself before God and trust in Him for salvation?

    "He hates God, loves sin, and is unwilling and undesirous of coming to Christ; how then can he repent and do so? He is spiritually blind; how then can he make himself see? He is spiritually dead; how then can he make himself live?

    "In light of these truths, the evangelist finds himself left with the desperate question that the disciples themselves asked Jesus: "Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26)

    "In other words, if the only way to be saved is to turn to Christ, but unbelievers are unable to turn to Christ, who then can be saved?

    "What, if anything, can the evangelist do to bring people to the Savior?

    "Isn’t he being asked to communicate a message to which his audience has no ability to respond?

    "This is the evangelist’s dilemma."

    con't.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26).

    Our Heart-Opening God:

    from: https://www.biblesnet.com/matt-waymeyer-evangelism-101-laying-the-foundation.pdf

    "Have you ever seen a camel walk through the eye of a needle? Of course not. That would be impossible. And that is precisely why Jesus told his disciples it would be "easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:25).

    He wanted them to understand it was impossible.

    Recognizing the implications of Jesus’ startling statement, the disciples responded with the obvious question: "Then who can be saved?" (Luke 18:26).

    "This, of course, was an appropriate inquiry.

    "If it is impossible for even a rich man to be saved, then who can be saved?

    "It would seem that no one can. But listen instead to the reply that Jesus gave to the disciples:

    "The things impossible with men
    are possible with God"
    (Luke 18:27).

    "In this verse,
    Jesus revealed two elementary truths about salvation:

    (1) It is impossible with man,

    and yet

    (2) it is possible with God.


    "The first half of this equation was covered in chapter one—man is not able to do anything to save himself.

    "But what did Jesus mean in saying that salvation was possible with God? How can a man be saved? The key to answering this question is simple, yet profound:

    "Although man is inherently unable to respond to the gospel (impossible with man), God is able to open his heart to respond (possible with God).

    "In Acts 16, Paul was preaching to a number of women in Philippi.

    "As Paul preached that the women should repent of their sins and believe in Christ, a woman named Lydia was listening.

    "Because of her spiritually depraved condition, however, Lydia was inherently unable to respond to Paul’s message.

    "And yet we know from verse 14 that she did respond.

    "How did this happen? How was she saved?

    "The answer to this question is that
    "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).

    "God intervened and demonstrated that what was impossible with her was possible with Him.

    "When a person repents and believes in Christ, it is because God has opened his or her heart to respond to the gospel.

    "What is impossible with man is possible with God.

    "This same pattern can be seen clearly in Jesus’ teaching: "No one can come to me [impossible with man], unless the Father who sent me draws him [possible with God]; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

    "In this verse Jesus teaches that although no man is able to come to Christ, God the Father is able to draw men to Christ and does so when he calls them unto salvation.

    "This is commonly known as effectual calling. For this reason, Scripture teaches that faith and repentance are gifts from God.

    "When an unbeliever repents of his sins and believes in Christ, it is not the fruit of his inherent ability to repent and believe but rather the result of God opening his heart and granting him repentance (Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25) and faith (Acts 13:48; 18:27; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 1:29; 2 Pet. 1:1).

    "Therefore, repentance and faith are not works that man performs in order to earn his salvation—they are the change of heart brought about by God Himself. Salvation is by grace from start to finish.

    "This work of God in changing men’s hearts is reflected in the imagery used in several Old Testament prophecies.

    "For example, God says in Jeremiah 24:7,
    "And I will give them a heart to know me, for I am the Lord; and they will return to Me with their whole heart."

    "The sinner must turn to God with his whole heart in order to be saved, but it is God who opens his heart and enables him to do so.

    "Prior to this, the unbeliever is hardened and unresponsive toward God—his heart is made of stone. Only when God works in his heart and effectually draws him to Christ does he respond to the gospel. Left to himself, the unbeliever’s heart will remain evil and enslaved to sin, neither able nor willing to repent of sin and believe in Christ.

    "For him salvation is impossible. But the things impossible with men are possible with God, for He is the One who takes the initiative in salvation by giving His chosen ones eyes to see, ears to hear, and the heart and ability to respond to the gospel in faith and repentance.

    "Our heart-opening God is truly the God of all grace."

    con't
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Master’s Instruments:

    from: https://www.biblesnet.com/matt-waymeyer-evangelism-101-laying-the-foundation.pdf

    "Since salvation is solely the work of our heart-opening God,
    where does that leave man?

    "Does the believer assume any role whatsoever in the salvation of the lost?

    "In response to this question, some have insisted that the Christian must passively surrender to the sovereignty of God and simply sit back and wait for God to zap whomever He pleases.

    "What such individuals fail to realize, however, is that just as a surgeon uses special instruments to perform delicate surgery, so also does God use instruments of His choice to grant new life to a sinner.

    "The first instrument employed by the Master Surgeon is a divine instrument, namely the Word of God.

    James writes, "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth" (James 1:18).

    Notice that James first states that his readers were "brought forth"—or born again—in the exercise of God’s will.

    "In other words, it was the sovereign purpose of the Lord that they be made alive in Christ. And how was it that He brought them forth in keeping with His sovereign will?

    "They were brought forth, James writes, "by the word of truth."

    "James says the instrument or the means by which God granted them new life was the message of the gospel.

    "The Apostle Peter reminds his readers of this truth in a similar fashion, writing, "you have been born again…through the living and abiding word of God…which was preached to you" (1 Pet 1:23, 25).

    "Again, Scripture states clearly that God has caused His children to be born again through—or by means of—His word.

    This same teaching is found in Paul’s epistles as well: The apostle reminds Timothy that Scripture is "able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation" (2 Tim. 3:15);

    "he writes to the church at Rome that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Rom 10:17);

    "he tells the Ephesian believers that Jesus has cleansed the church "by the washing of water with the word" (Eph. 5:26);

    "and he assures the Romans that the gospel is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; cf. 1 Cor. 1:18).

    At this point, some may object and say that the gospel is offensive to unbelievers and that another means must be used in seeking their salvation.

    "After all, it’s so exclusive and intolerant, and not at all what people today are looking for.

    "Preaching the pure, unadulterated gospel simply will not be effective.

    "The example of the Apostle Paul, however, points in the opposite direction: "For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom," the apostle writes, "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness…" (1 Cor. 1:22-23).

    "In other words, Paul remained committed to the divine message regardless of its offense, for he knew that it was "to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (v. 24).

    "The bottom line is that any doubts regarding the gospel as the God-ordained means through which He saves sinners may be sufficiently put to rest with the simple and wonderful truth that "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe" (1 Cor. 1:21).

    "The second of the Master’s instruments is not a divine instrument, but rather a human one, for the gospel message needs a messenger.

    "This simple truth can be seen clearly in Paul’s epistle to Rome, where he writes, "How shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14)

    "Paul’s point here is not difficult to grasp—sinners cannot believe in the One of whom they have not heard, and they cannot hear of Him without someone preaching to them.

    "In other words, the preaching of the gospel is indispensable to the salvation of the lost.

    "God, in His infinite wisdom, was pleased to determine that sinners be saved through a message brought to them by human messengers (i.e. "the message preached" in 1 Cor. 1:21).

    "It is for this reason that the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 Cor. 5:20).

    "Therefore, while the evangelist is not a divine instrument per se, he is a divinely ordained instrument and one that plays a vital role in God’s plan to save His people.

    "Most simply stated, then, evangelism consists of the human messenger proclaiming the divine message to depraved sinners.

    "God is indeed the One who saves, but the Master utilizes instruments of His choice to carry out His work. And these instruments—both the message and the messenger—play an indispensable role in the work whereby our life-giving God does what no human surgeon could ever hope to accomplish."

    con't
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    How Shall We Then Evangelize?

    from: https://www.biblesnet.com/matt-waymeyer-evangelism-101-laying-the-foundation.pdf

    "Anyone who has been involved in a major building project knows that the foundation of a building is above all in significance. The architectural design may be incredible and the execution of those plans flawless, but if the foundation is weak or faulty, it’s only a matter of time before the structure will suffer a collapse of some kind.

    "The same might be said of the foundation of one’s approach to evangelism.

    "As well-meaning and zealous as someone may be if a biblical understanding of man, sin, and salvation does not form the foundation (and therefore determine the method) of his evangelistic efforts, these efforts are not only doomed to fail but also to dishonor God and His Word in the process.

    "Some, for example, have at their foundation the belief that the unbeliever possesses within himself the ability to believe in Christ as an act of his own free will.

    "For them, evangelism can become little more than seeking to woo (or argue, as the case may be) the potential convert into making a decision for Christ by praying "the sinner’s prayer," raising a hand, or walking forward during an altar call.


    "However, when the evangelist comes to a right understanding of man’s inherent inability to respond the gospel, the heart-opening grace of God, and the instruments through which the Lord grants salvation to sinners, such man-centered approaches to reaching the lost ought to be abandoned.

    "The question, however, still remains:

    "How, then, shall we evangelize?

    "In his first epistle to the church at Corinth, the apostle Paul addresses this question and thereby outlines a properly God-centered approach to evangelism by reminding the Corinthians how he himself approached the task of proclaiming the gospel to them years earlier.

    "In 1 Corinthians 2:1-5, Paul writes: "And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.

    "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

    "And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.

    "And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."


    "In this passage, Paul models for the believer the manner in which he is to introduce the gospel to an unbelieving world. Specifically, Paul outlines four ways the evangelist must approach this most significant privilege.

    "First, the evangelist must not rely on his own eloquence or wisdom.

    "It can be tempting for the evangelist to believe that the unbeliever’s response to the gospel will depend largely (or at least in part) on how articulate, eloquent or persuasive he is in his presentation of the gospel. "If I can only choose my words carefully enough," the evangelist reasons in his heart, "then this person will be more likely to repent."

    "But Paul writes in verse 1 that when he brought the gospel to the Corinthians, he "did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom."

    "In other words, Paul did not rely on his rhetorical ability to piece words together in a manner he thought might be more effective in converting the sinner. This is because he knew dependence on one’s own eloquence or wisdom to be antithetical to a right understanding of the unbeliever’s depravity and God’s work of salvation.

    "Second, the evangelist must rely instead on the power of the message of the gospel. If the believer is not to depend on his own words as he seeks the salvation of the lost, on whose should he depend?

    "In verse 2, Paul writes that instead of relying on his own eloquence or wisdom, he determined he would "know nothing among [the Corinthians] except Christ, and Him crucified."

    "In other words, in his preaching, Paul would adhere exclusively to God’s Word—the simple message of the gospel—and trust in its ability to do the Lord’s work of salvation.

    "Why? Because it is this message, not man’s, that is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18, 24).

    "The modern-day evangelist must follow in the apostle’s footsteps, determining himself to remain committed to the message of the gospel as he calls sinners to faith in Christ.

    "Third, the evangelist must possess a sober-minded sense of his own inadequacy. In verse 3, Paul reminds the Corinthians that while he was with them, he was "in weakness and in fear and in much trembling."

    "These are not the words of a man who had confidence in his own ability to "make the sale" or "lead the sinner to Christ."

    "In fact, most prominent in Paul’s thinking was his own weakness and inadequacy.

    "He knew he lacked the ability to bring about the change of heart necessary for salvation, and therefore such a task would have to be undertaken by Another.

    "It was in Him that Paul’s faith would abide.

    "And fourth, the evangelist must trust solely in the power of the Holy Spirit. In verse 4, Paul writes that his message and his preaching "were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power."

    "In other words, as Paul brought the gospel to unbelieving Corinth, his faith was not in his own message or ability to communicate in "cleverness of speech" (1:17), but rather in the power of the Holy Spirit who is able to do what no mere man can do.

    "The key here is to understand that God is the Savior and that salvation is His work, and then to direct one’s dependence in accordance with this understanding.

    "When the evangelist takes this kind of approach to proclaim the good news to a Christ-less world, men’s faith will rest—as Paul concludes in verse 5 of that chapter—not "on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

    "In this, the Lord is most delighted, for His glory is His highest priority and greatest pleasure.

    "And if we, as the children of God, are to imitate our Father by regarding His glory as our chief aim and affection, we must do so by building upon a truly biblical foundation of evangelism."
     
  8. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    JD. You actually said that very well. The Spirit is the life for sure. The whole premise here is that there is more going on than even the Spirit acting in an advisory or convincing manner. There is actual life, spiritual life, being implanted into a spiritually dead person. I don't understand the conflict here although I don't insist that only Calvinists teach that, as you have shown.

    This section above is almost word for word what Calvin said in his commentaries on the whole Bible regarding Lydia. I was trying to tell George that his whole thrust was to say that although the Holy Spirit opens the heart and illuminates, it HAS to be done by the preaching of the actual word of God. I'm not kidding. I'll post the lengthy quote if you don't have access but that is why I was challenging George on this.

    I agree. And some Calvinists don't take the time to read Calvinist theology beyond the quick internet responses you see on here. Calvin goes into this some, but the Puritans later expounded on this aspect much more. The detailed work of the interaction between the Holy Spirit, the word, circumstances, convictions divine and common human convictions, the roles of the natural and renewed human soul are never discussed in more detail than in Puritan Calvinist literature. John Owen devoted literally scores of pages of writing on this subject alone.

    And monergism doesn't mean the person is not involved, it is saying that the driving force in this is the Holy Spirit. In other words it is trying to refute the idea that there would be a scenario where the Godhead would be in a discussion where they would say that the atonement is accomplished, now we must see if anyone accepts Christs offer. But that is what synergism does and it's absurd when you really lay it out, isn't it?

    I take it you mean guys like "Give me Scotland or I die" John Knox. Or the "Prince of Preachers" Charles Spurgeon. Or, if you mean someone you can still listen to, Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, who is criticized for being too dramatic for modern audiences? I'm sorry, but that charge won't fly here.
     
  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Just to add one more thought. People have a range of ideas on this which go from the Holy Spirit imparting new life to an elect person completely independent of anything else all the way to the idea that human beings are rational, creatures that when presented with the propositions contained in the gospel message are fully capable by using their own powers of reason, to respond to the gospel and believe it to the saving of their souls.

    I only have access to two sources from Calvin regarding Lydia. Both of those sources say that the Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary to "open the heart" of a person in order that they receive anything of a spiritual nature. But the main thrust of Calvin's comments in both sources I have is that the Word must be preached and he was refuting people who had a mystical idea that somehow the Spirit would directly impart divine life or knowledge WITHOUT the word.
     
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    We did not say it said the blue marine words, whereas Calvinist do say it "says" the black ones. So this is irrelevant.
     
  11. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Well ok then.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The blue marine words are to correct the black words, which are your thoughts.

    You are saying the words in black, for your side of the argument. Calvinists don't say any of those things in black, which represent your side.

    What is irrelevant to some people are the words in royale purple. They were already dismissed out of hand and so not even mentioned.
     
  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I will just comment that we seem to not agree on the definition of life itself. The Spirit of God and Christ IS THE LIFE. He is eternal and he is God and when he is in our bodies, he is OUR life. He must be received on the basis of our understanding the promise of God and simply believing that God will save us from our sins through the atonement of Jesus Christ by the sinless life that he lived and the one time sacrifice of himself on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. We must know what Jesus did for us and why he did it. This means also that one must know and understand the role of God the Father, the Judge of all the earth, that he must judge sin, every sin, because of his righteous character. We must hear the promises he has made to us and we must believe them and receive them and be exercised by them. Salvation comes by believing what God says. It is God who justifies the sinner. It is he who evaluates the heart and the sincerity of your profession. It is he who gives the Spirit of life to those he deems to believe with the heart.

    Jesus Christ is the personification of the Word of God. It is he that must be preached. When we are told to preach the word, he is actually saying for us to preach Jesus Christ to sinners, what he has done for us. Calvinists do not know this. They have a Jesus without believing the words of God the Father. In Romans 5 where we are told that Jesus died for the ungodly, that is not the words of Jesus, it is the words of God the Father. There is not a 5 pointer alive on the earth today who believes that, so they deny that God has made atonement to the whole world by Jesus Christ so everyone who will believe may come through Jesus to him and be saved. It is serious unbelief to deny the atonement of Jesus Christ and how this act reconciled the sinful world to God.

    Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
    45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
    46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
    47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
    48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    If Lydia were saved in Acts 16 it was because the preacher explained the good news from God that he will save everyone who personally believes that he will give them the gift of eternal life and forgive their sins when they trust that Jesus Christ has provided all that God requires on behalf of all sinners. The preacher is the key man between God and sinners in this age. There is no salvation without him and God has made it so.

    Your attempts to make Calvinism compatible with Bible believers can not work. The rift is too wide.
     
  14. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    There would be one difference. I do not believe that you, on your own, come to God and make a profession of faith and then if it is judged sincere enough He gives you the Spirit of life. Maybe it's just not well said but it sounds flat out wrong to me.

    If you are already convinced that you just don't like Calvinists then don't bother reading on but if you would listen for a moment, let me explain something. The fact is, ALL 5 point Calvinists theologians that I know of that are not hyper-Calvinist do most certainly believe that "everyone who will believe may come through Jesus to him and be saved". I'm including John Owen, who wrote the definitive work on the extent of the atonement. They do not believe that anyone who does this will ever or ever has been someone who Christ did not die for. They also do not believe that anyone who does not come is one who Christ did die for. In other words they have a high view of God's overall sovereignty so things like that simply don't happen. You need to know that so you won't make statements like you did. As for myself, I think there are some verses that do indicate in some sense a universal atonement and I acknowledge that some heavyweights like Jonathan Edwards and even Calvin himself, were somewhat ambiguous on that point.

    My whole point of getting on this thread was to show that that is exactly what Calvin said. He said that the Word of God, preached or taught, was essential and without it God would save no one. The Holy Spirit Himself will not illuminate anyone's mind without the Word. But he was also a Bible believer enough to think that when God opened her heart he really did.
    As to your last statement, I admit you get it honest on this site. Some of the Calvinists on here are the meanest most self righteousness, self appointed guardians of orthodoxy I have ever seen. But with you dividing everyone into Calvinism vs Bible believers aren't you doing the same thing? You really think all those Puritans, later guys like Spurgeon, Bonar, Ryle, Lloyd-Jones were not Bible believers? That's just not helpful at all and is probably offensive to God.
     
  15. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am responding to the part of your post I have highlighted with this biblical observation;

    Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    I know this. The system of theology called Calvinism is built upon 5 petals of the TULIP which are not true no matter who preaches them.
     
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  16. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough JD. I find your responses on here thoughtful and it doesn't bother me if you disagree with me. If you have such an animosity towards Calvinism I think you just are missing out on a huge volume of good Christian literature that would have been available to you, ninety percent of which has nothing to do with the TULIP.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...absolutely, she was already heavenly born, BEFORE she ever 'heard', as was Cornelius, the Ethiopian Eunuch, Nathaniel, and every other saint that has ever 'heard'.

    Pay no mind to what the Calminians say. They may claim to be 'Monergists', or believe themselves to be, but they are not.
     
    #57 kyredneck, Apr 29, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2023
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I have to smile when someone asks me to present a careful, contextual, and well studied view of an ambiguous phrase. Was such a request made of those pushing the inference of spiritual regeneration? Nope

    Scripture uses "opened his eyes, opened his mind, or open her heart" to address where something is explained such that understanding occurs. Consider Numbers 24:16, and the idea that understanding has been achieved, and with understanding comes worship. In 2 Kings 6:15-19, once again we see having eyes opened simply means to understand, and does not suggest regeneration or enablement.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What John 6:44-45 teaches is that individuals must be exposed to the gospel in order to be attracted by God's lovingkindness, and those who act on that attraction are the ones who "learned" from the Father. Regeneration is not taught or even implied.

    Nothing in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 teaches Lydia could not receive the "spiritual milk" things of the Spirit. Once again, a misreading of one verse is used to support a misreading of another view.

    Lydia was in her natural person of flesh state, but able to understand the gospel when presented with clarity, such that her heart was opened.
     
  20. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I messed up a post earlier and everything ended up under a "quote". But I was going to say that I think Calvin came short of flat out saying that Lydia or even those other people you mention were actually regenerated before they ever heard. I don't think he equated being born again or regenerated with being enlightened or illuminated by the Holy Spirit, which he did believe to be essential. I have looked in the "Institutes" and in his commentary on the whole Bible and have not found this to be so.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I am interested in actual quotes or references from Calvin's works.
     
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