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Featured The scriptural and contextual reading of Lydia's heart

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Apr 22, 2023.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am not a fan of empty posts. If you have nothing to say, do not say it.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I am reminded of the Publican and Pharisee. Gnostic notions are just that, i.e. nonsense to support nonsense.
     
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  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    So God witholds vital christian knowledge from some, and reveals it to others, as He sees fit.
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Dave what I am saying is that I think labels are a bad idea. That is why I just say I trust the bible. I can agree with what some of the Calvinst writers have said and still not agree with their overall theology. I have even agreed with Austin on occasion as strange as that sounds.

    What I have found with those Calvinist writers I have read is that when they stick to the bible they are good. But when they drift of into the Calvinist philosophy they are very bad. For me it seems that many that hold to the Calvinist view are just confused as it seems they want to walk on both sides of the street at the same time. For example DoG/TULIP and free will do not comport and yet I am told all the time they do because I just do not understand Calvinism. The problem is that Calvinist's do not understand Calvinism or they just ignore what it says. The way some Calvinists come across you would think they were the only people that could read.

    Dave I am not questioning the intelligence or integrity of many of your Calvinist writers, what I am saying is that they let the Calvinist philosophy overrule the text of scripture at times.

    Perhaps you should look at some non Calvinist writers to get a different perspective. Daniel Whedon, Adam Clarke, John Wesley are some of the commentaries I have.
     
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  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I do. I have read a lot of Baxter and Wesley and have read Thomas Grantham. I am reading Leroy Forlines right now. I am Calvinist because I stumbled upon the Puritan's and Jerry Bridges who had basically paraphrased Owen and they were of great help to me. If you have been helped by non-Calvinists more and that is your background, and you haven't been convinced of the validity of Calvinism I see no reason for you to embrace Calvinism. One thing I do not do is doubt the salvation of the non-Calvinists. Some do, and it goes in both directions. I'm not being opened minded, I just really don't think these issues are of first tier importance.

    Regarding this thread, I just listened to Martyn Lloyd-Jones sermon #5738 How the Gospel Came to Europe, which is about the events leading up to Paul meeting Lydia. It is worth listening to.
     
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  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I think it is foolish for some man to think he can judge the salvation of another, that is way above our pay grade. Do you have a link to that sermon, Martyn Lloyd-Jones sermon #5738.

    I have Frolines Classical Arminianism and John Lennox 's book Determined to Believe that I plan to read when I get a chance.

    Since I had not even heard of the A vs C fight until about 10 years ago I can only say my theology came from reading the bible. What I have found over the last few years is that Calvinism just seems to have to many contradictions in it. But I should imagine that we will find that we all had some points wrong when we get to heaven.
     
  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    How the Gospel Came to Europe - a sermon from Dr. Martyn Lloyd Jones

    What I was saying about applying the theology is illustrated by the story of Lydia. The guys on here that devote most of their time to the study of the doctrines of grace and how to argue them tended to view Lydia, like the Calvinistic theology would suggest: As a God hating, spiritually blind, totally bent on evil individual just like everyone else until she would be regenerated, which would occur like the flipping on of an electrical switch. And they assumed that "the Lord opened her heart" then just had to mean regeneration or nothing.

    The free will people tended to try to play down or even eliminate the fact that the phrase "opened her heart" is there and must mean something more than being exposed to new information. They refused to allow for any type of a supernatural intervention. The beauty of Martyn Lloyd-Jones's sermon is that he honors and rejoices in God's sovereignty in arranging the whole event of Lydia's conversion and at the end he takes the Calvinistic position about God opening her heart, without going to the excesses that some on here do. He correctly applies his Calvinistic understanding of the scripture passage. And that's why I say you can't really understand Calvinism until you have observed how the great preachers and teachers handled it rather than relying on those who primarily are wanting to debate.
     
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  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Dave what you call opening her heart I would call the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God is working to draw all people to Himself but man has to make the choice to accept or reject the invitation. When I hear or read the Calvinist version it always comes down to God having to make the choice for the person which does not fit with the text of the bible.

    I have said this before but it bears repeating, God is actively working in and through His creation, our conscience, His bride, His Holy Spirit filled followers, and His Word to aid humanity in their conversion. Man can not save himself and God will not force someone to be saved.

    God is sovereign and it seems some people really do not want to allow Him to be so, they want to impose their version of salvation rather than what the bible says.

    Augustine defended mans free will until he had to defend against Pelagius. If Augustine had just stood his ground he would have defeated Pelagius but instead he ran back to his pagan roots and in that he brought pagan philosophy into the church and we are dealing with the result to this day.

    Thank you for the link I will listen to what MLJ has to say.
     
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  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Dave I listened to MLJ, interesting talk. It did make me think though and here is what came to mind.

    In Calvinism’s TULIP, the T stands for total depravity/inability which says that men are so fallen, so wicked, so depraved that they cannot do, think, or want anything good, nor can they want or seek God, until and unless they were elected and God regenerates them first. But this unregenerated unbeliever, Lydia, was worshiping God all on her own, before God “opened her heart.” We also see this with Cornelius. Acts of the Apostles 10:1-2 How was this possible?

    How could they seek and worship God as the bible says they did if, according to Calvinism, they were unable to do. Were they worshiping a false God? Not according to scripture. On the other side if they were worshiping the God of the bible then they did not need to be regenerated so they could believe as Calvinism teaches.
     
  10. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning
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  11. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Please, don't try to flatter yourself...it's not becoming of you.
     
  12. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    To be completely honest with you, I don't know. Like I said earlier, I was drawn to Calvinism by the benefits I got from Puritan preaching and teaching. I started going to a moderately Calvinist church because they taught a more rigorous living of the Christian life than the "go forward and then do whatever" churches I was used to. Personally, as a theological system I think it has some weak points and that is one of them. I don't think God is up there passively waiting to see who "decides" for Christ, but I don't think there are millions walking around who have no possibility of being saved because Christ did not die for them. Since I know so many Calvinist preachers like Lloyd-Jones, who not only preached in a fair and balanced way, but genuinely respected Wesley and Baxter and in the case of Lloyd-Jones, his own predecessor, G. Campbell Morgan, who was an Arminian, I stay with them.
     
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  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Its not me, I plead Gen 40:8

    And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

    God has made Christ to be unto His People Wisdom 1 Cor 1:30

    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    He also gave Christ to be these things to Lydia as well
     
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  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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