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The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Theology & Bible Stud
    The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

    Strawman: is God a bigamist as the Mormons claim?

    This is another lawyer question - a question that cannot
    be answered. I find it unkind and unworthy to ask in a debate
    among equals. So the questiont is condescending at best and EVIL at worst.
    No edification would result, should one try to answer it 'yes' or 'no'.

    I will make 2 legitimate questions of it:

    1. Is God a bigamist?

    A bigamist is a male human with two wives. Therefore God cannot
    be a bigamist for God is not a human.

    2. Do the Mormons claim God is a Bigamist?

    Yes. Well, yes if I understand their claims. But thier worse
    claim is that God was a man and men will be Gods. Sorry, Joe
    Smith, God is God and humans are at best: human and that is all
    they will ever be.

    So what is the problem of the person who asks:
    "is God a bigamist as the Mormons claim."


    They don't understand that God is timeless (God created time and
    He is not bound by or in His creation. Just as God can be everywere
    at once, He can be everywhen at once.

    So when I note That God has a wife in the OT and it is the national
    Israeli; when I note that God has a wife in the Church Age (the largely
    Gentile Church); when i note that in the Ages to come God will make
    one both the national Jewish Israeli elect church saints and
    the Church Age mostly gentile elect church saints -- GOd will make them
    one. At no time does God have two wives (but if God wants to he can,
    God is not bound by our petty rules nor by the laws of the Universe
    which He created).


    Benjamin:
    //Your chart doesn’t clearly prove anything, because they do
    not even connect with any verses you have presented; also
    your charts show how illogically you’re seeing the interpretations
    of the scriptures, and you seem to think it’s proving something
    to us. Plainly, the charts are not supported by the scriptures
    you’ve presented and are flawed and illogical. I’d suggest
    you follow what the Bible is saying instead of presenting
    these man-made fallible charts that don’t line up. In case
    this isn’t clear enough for you, I do not agree with your flawed charts.//

    Your statements are incorrect. I'll not share with you why they
    are wrong.

    Come on, man, can't you see what you are saying?
    Are you willing to put your ministry on-line and let every disgrunteled
    person who wants to take a pot-shot at it?

    I suggest, Brother Benjamin, that you attack unjustly Brother Me4Him's
    ministry at the highest level (like a 3-year old knocking a pile of blocks
    over - it is much easier to knock blocks over than to pile them up).
    A good person would tell Brother Me4Him exact details of what is wrong
    instead of broad generalites. There is constructive criticism and there
    is destructive 3-year-old-isms. Figure out which one will 'sell' the best
    when you also have to appear before the Judgement (Bema) Seat of Christ.


    Benjamin: //I’d suggest
    you follow what the Bible is saying instead of presenting
    these man-made fallible charts that don’t line up.//

    I hope you realise how arrogant such statements are. It seems i
    spend 1/3 of my ministry (yes, i am a layman, but even laymen have
    ministries) trying to correct such arrogant statements. The basic
    assumption you have to make which supports your logic (and you may
    not even know you have to have such an assumption) is:

    My understanding of the Bible is innerrant. [sample false statement]

    Nobody believes that, it goes against what our religion teaches
    that we have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. And
    your reading of the Bible is no better than mine.

    What you seem to be saying, which is baseless, is that making it
    easier to understand what the Bible says is bad. Sorry, that went out
    the window with the reformation. There is no Baptist priestly class
    that is better than the laymen class Baptists -- all are accountable before
    God equally.

    Benjamin: "Your chart doesn’t clearly prove anything, ... "

    Was his chart intended to prove something? I don't think so.
    His chart was intended to SIMPLIFY things. I'm getting hit hard for
    my pretribualtion rapture belief because i give everything in great
    detail (just to show the Bible does have great detail) and Me4Him
    is getting hit for not showing enough detail. I'm seeing a double standard,
    i hope i don't start getting both from the same person [​IMG]

    Here is some homework Bro.: Write an evangelistic message
    which gives details of the major judgements. Expect 27 people who don't
    know you to critique it and 4 people who don't like you to slay it for you.

    BTW, over in the All Other Denominations Forum, the thread on
    God's Plan for the Ages, is a better place to have this discussion there.
    For there Brother Me4Him has kindly placed his religous LIFE WORK out
    for display. Those who love to mock are there mocking him.

    BTW, i'm disturbed on another level (bro. Ben is NOT the problem):
    there seems to be a Baptist undercurrent of "if you don't say it using
    the words i use, then you don't agree with me". And isn't chart making
    just a way of saying God's truth in the a different way?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //"Matthew chapter 24 say nothing about two comings.//

    It helps if one can count:

    1. Matthew 24:29-30 - the coming lost humans on earth fear
    2. Mathew 24:31+ - the coming the elect saved seek

    DeafPosttrib: //'Generation' is speak to people & believers
    who is livin
    in the last days, ... //

    Amen, Brother -- Preach it!

    The last days began at the Day of Pentacost the Year Jesus Died
    as shown in Acts 2:17. I think this was in AD33. The last days
    continues until the pretribulation rapture. The Generation that
    started at the Day of Pentacost is the Gentile Age.
    So the Gentile Age (AKA: Church Age) began at the day of Pentacost
    AD33 and ends at the pretibulaion rapture.

    DeafPosttrib: //Matthew 24 tells us, we must see
    the signs first come to pass and then face persecutions
    also.//

    Actually the signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are the continuing signs
    that the Church Age (AKA: Gentile Age) continues - the time during
    which gentiles can come into the Kingdom of God by believing in
    the redeeming work of Messiah Jesus on the Cross and His glorious
    Resurreciton.

    Any persecutions spoken of in Matthew 24 are NOT the same as
    the Great Tribulation to be placed on unrepentant mankind at the
    end of this age and the beginning of the next age.

    Someday when you are tired on spinning your wheels in the
    pretrib/postrib debate and are ready to expand your understanding of the
    eschatological teachings of the Bible and know enough mathematics
    to talk about included and non-included endpoints of line segments
    we can talk about if the Tribulation Period of 7-years is

    1. excluded from the Gentile age and excluded from the physical Millinnial Kingdom
    2. excluded from the Gentile age but included in the physical Millinnial Kingdom
    3. included in the Gentile age but excluded from the physical Millinnial Kingdom
    4. included in the Gentile age and included in the physical Millinnial Kingdom

    But hey, nowhere in the Bible does it say clearly any of these cases.
    We humans are quite capable of asking questions NOT answered directly
    in the Bible. Also God has given us the ability to read so we can figure
    out some stuff that is directly not given in the Bible.

    For example, nowhere in the Bible does it directly say what happens
    to the soul of the unborn when they are aborted. From the attributes of
    God, i have a guess that such a soul goes to heaven for all eternity.
    But it is only a guess. What do you guess?

    DeafPosttrib: "Christ told us
    only one future coming at the end of the age."

    This is NOT what Jesus says in the Bible nor any of His ministers.
    This is DeafPosttrib's guess (and, of course, others guess the same guess).

    DeafPosttrib: "You cannot find two comings in Matthew 24,
    because Christ does not mentioned on them."

    I do find two comings in Matthew 24, because Christ does mention them.
    Mark chapter 13 and Luke 21 both telling the same thing.

    1. the coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation period
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up His physical Millinnial Kingdom.
    2. the coming of Christ at the start of the Tribulation period
    to gather the elect of the Gentile age - the pretrib rapture

    BTW, Luke tells us to watch and pray for Jesus to come get us
    at the gathering. If we were going to still be around after
    the great earthquake of Revelation 16 - Jesus would not have to
    ask us to do it - we would be eagerly waiting for releaf from
    the greatest tribulation ever on the earth. Sorry, Bubba, we
    elect saved individuals do NOT get to go into the Great Tribulation
    period.

    DeafPosttrib: //Many baptists don't accept what Christ actual saying.
    Why not they tear Matthew 24 out of the Bible? //

    Give us a good example [​IMG] Put Revelation 20 back into your Bible.
    Treat Revelation 20 literal and physical not spiritual and etheral.

    Benjamin: "There’s a WHOLE lot I’d like to add to this discussion
    but I just don't have the time right now to start something.
    One of these days I’m going to help you pluck some feathers out
    of these Pre-tribber’s wings though!"

    Count the cost before you do. Brother DeafPosttrib and I have been
    talking together ON THIS VENUE ALONE for for three years.
    As you can see, neither of us have run out of material yet.
    We both work lots cause of feeding the kids & wife, etc.

    BTW, you could save about six months if you will tell us if you
    are post-trib rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming Event;
    or are post-trib, a-mill, spiritual Millinnial Kingdom;
    or /blank/ specify in a post.

    preferably at:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3398.html?
     
  3. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

    Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (GOD) which made a marriage for his son, (JESUS)

    You tell me, is God a bigamist???

    My charts are "unintelligible" because you don't understand the scriptures.

    How can you profess to be "right" in your doctrine and not understand the scriptures??

    Your refusal to change your belief isn't just against "my teaching", but anyone's, even the "SPIRIT" teaching.

    Prophecy isn't given to "Everyone", but as Iron sharpen Iron, one man can "sharpen" another, providing he is willing be to "Sharpen".
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    ED
    I posted "TEXT" with each of the charts explaining them,

    I'm not the "writer" I would like to be, but there's sufficent info to "point" any serious Bible student in the right direction.

    Trouble is, most don't want to spend the time studying/learning scripture to recognize the errors in what they do know.

    The more you know about scripture, the quicker your errors become apparent to you.
     
  5. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Ed,
    I don’t have a complete system figured out to hold to an eschatological view, although frankly pre-trib would have to be the last on my list and I could defend post-trib pretty well.

    Obviously you missed the whole point of my first post. You gave an interpretation of DeafPosttrib’s paragraph which I didn’t think did him justice. So I gave one too. Look for yourself to see who better represented what he actually said. Sorry Deafposttrib.

    Right now there are only two costs which is too much time to try and pin you down and deal with every aspect that you will throw out. Plus, I would just ruffle your premature feathers in the process and probably need more self control. And my slate is really full right now to take on another project and I’ve made a promise to steer away from conflict in this field for now and focus on other things like not letting it be a division from the church we go to, as it should not be, and to concentrate on other biblical issues.


    Peace.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Benjamin: "Obviously you missed the whole point of my first post. You gave an interpretation of DeafPosttrib’s paragraph which I didn’t think did him justice. So I gave one too. Look for yourself to see who better represented what he actually said. Sorry Deafposttrib."

    My Bad. I'll look at it that way.
    Perchance it will look difference.

    Benjamin: " ... and focus on other things like not letting it be a division from the church we go to, as it should not be, ... "

    And i wish you God speed in so doing.
     
  7. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    "The Jewish Wedding Analogy of John 14:1-3!"

    BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMES!
    THE COMFORTING PROMISE

    It was a night of destiny, Jesus had gathered with His disciples in the Upper Room. In a few more hours He would be crucified on a cross.
    Jesus had been warning His disciples concerning His coming death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. The prospect of these events caused the disciples to be greatly disturbed. In order to ease their fears, Jesus made the following comforting promise:

    "Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (KJV , John 14:1-3).

    JEWISH MARRIAGE CUSTOMS

    Those who live in the modern western world do not catch the full significance of Jesus' promise. This is due to the fact that in His promise Jesus was drawing an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Since this is so, those marriage customs must be examined if one is to grasp the significance of the promise.

    The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal. Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus' time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative. The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father's house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride. Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife. From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.

    After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father's house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months. This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her tousseau and to prepare for married life. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father's house to which he could bring his bride.

    At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom's father's house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming. As a result the groom's arrival would be preceded by a shout. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

    After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride's home to the groom's father's house. Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

    Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face. While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.

    After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guesst. Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven days.

    During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called "the seven days of huppah," the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. At the conclusion of these seven days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.

    THE EXAMINATION OF THE ANALOGY

    Earlier it was stated that in His promise in John 14, Jesus drew an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Now that the marriage customs have been considered, it is essential that the analogy be examined. In what ways was Jesus' promise analogous with Jewish marriage customs?

    In the examination of the analogy the first thing that should be noted is the fact that the Scriptures regard the Church to be the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-23). In addition, just as the Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father's house and traveling to the home of the prospective bride, so Jesus left his Father's house in heaven and traveled to earth, the home of His prospective Church, over 1900 years ago.

    In the same manner as the Jewish bridegroom came to the bride's home for the purpose of obtaining her through the establishment of a marriage covenant, so Jesus came to earth for the purpose of obtaining the Church through the establishment of a covenant. On the same night in which Jesus made His promise in John 14 He instituted communion. As He passed the cup of wine to His disciples, He said: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood." (NASV, 1 Cor. 11:25). This was His way of saying that He would establish a new covenant through the shedding of His blood on the cross.

    Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom paying a price to purchase his bride, Jesus paid a price to purchase His Bride, the Church. The price that He paid was His own life's blood. It was because of this purchase price that Paul wrote the following to members of the Church: "do you not know... that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body". (NASV, 1 Cor. 6:19-20).

    Anagolous with the Jewish bride being declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for her groom once the marriage covenant was established, the Church has been declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for Christ (Eph. 5:25-27; 1 Cor. 1:2, 6:11; Heb. 10:10; 13:12).

    In the same way that a cup of wine served as a symbol of marriage covenant through which the Jewish groom obtained his bride, so the cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the Church (1 Cor. 11:25).

    Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father's house after the marriage covenant had been established, so Jesus returned to His Father's house in heaven after He had established the new covenant and risen from the dead (John 6:62; 20:17).

    In correspondence with the period of separation between the Jewish groom and bride, Christ has remained separate from the Church for over 1900 years. The Church is now living in that period of separation.

    Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father's house during the time of separation, Christ has been preparing living accommodations for the Church in His Father's house in heaven during His separation from His Bride (John 14:20).

    In the same manner as the Jewish groom came to take his bride to live with him at the end of the period of separation, so Christ will come to take the Church to live with Him at the end of His period of separation from the Church (John 14:3).

    Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the groom's father's house to the home of the bride, so the taking of the Church will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from Christ's Father's house in heaven to the home of the Church (1 Thess. 4:16).

    Analogous with the Jewish bride not knowing the exact time of the groom's coming for her the Church does not know the exact time of Christ's coming for her.

    In the same way that the Jewish groom's arrival was preceded by a shout, so Christ's arrival to take the Church will be preceded by a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).

    Similar to the Jewish bride's return with the groom to his father' house after her departure from her home, the Church will return with Christ to His Father's house in heaven after she is snatched from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14:2-3).

    In the same manner as the Jewish wedding party found wedding guests assembled in the groom's father's house when they arrived, so Christ and the Church will find the souls of old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls will serve as the wedding guests.
    Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival at the groom's father's house, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier, Christ and the Church will experience spiritual union after their arrival at His Father's house in heaven, thereby consummating their relationship that had been covenanted earlier.

    In correspondence with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for a period of seven days after arrival at the groom's father's house, the Church will remain hidden for a period of seven years after arrival at Christ's Father's house in heaven. While the seven year Tribulation Period is taking place on the earth, the Church will be in heaven totally hidden from the sight of those living on the earth.

    Just as the Jewish groom brought his bride out of the bridal chamber at the conclusion of the seven days with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was, so Christ will bring the Church out of heaven in His Second Coming at the conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true Church is (Col. 3:4).
    God bless!

    Written by,
    Dr. Renald Showers, Chairman of the Pastoral Studies Dept.
    Philadelphia College of Bible (year unknown)
    Distributed by,
    The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., W. Collingswood, N.J.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    JackRUS

    Another dispensational fairy tale?
     
  9. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    It is in the context of the Hebrew wedding custom that this passage must be understood. The specific reference is in section 9 below, but I typed out the entire relevant sections from "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah" by Edward Chumney Copyright 1994-occasional page copying for personal or group study approved. Because there are some interesting things to see when you consider Scripture in the light of a marriage covenant.

    There are 12 steps in the Hebrew wedding ceremony.

    1. The selection of the bride.
    The bride was usually chosen by the Father of the bridegroom. The Father would send his trusted servant, known as the agent of the Father, to search out the bride. An excellent example of this can be seen in Genesis 24.
    In this chapter, Abraham (a type of God the Father) wishes to secure a bride for Isaac (a type of Messiah {Christ})and sends his servant Eliezer (a type of the Holy Spirit { Ruach HaKodesh}) to do this task (Gen 24:2-4; 15:2).
    It is the role of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) to convict the world of sin and lead them to God (John 16:7-8).Just as the bride was usually chosen by the Father of the bridegroom, so the believers in Messiah are chosen by God (John 15:16). The bridegroom chose the bride and lavished his love upon her and she returned his love. This can be seen in Ephesians 5:25, as it is written, "Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it." In Genesis 24 Rebekah (Rivkah) consented to marry Isaac (Yitzchak) even before she ever met him. Today, the believers in the Messiah Yeshua consent to become the bride of Messiah even though we have never seen Him.
    1st Peter 1:8 speaks of this, as it is written, "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory."

    2. A bride price was established.
    A price would have to be paid for the bride.
    The agreed upon price was called a mohar in Hebrew. Yeshua, being our bridegroom, paid a very high price for His bride, the body of believers. The price He paid was His life.
    Yeshua considered the price He had to pay for His bride before His death as He went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray in Matthew 26:39,as it is written, "And He went a little farther, and fell flat on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." Yeshua was in essence saying, "Father ,You have chosen this bride and I have agreed to the terms, but do you realize the price that is being asked for her?" Our mohar, our bride price, was His life. 1St Peter 1:18-19 says, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

    In 1st Corinthians 6:20 it is written, "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

    3. The Bride and Groom are betrothed to each other.
    This is the first stage of marriage known as kiddushin. I have spoken at length about betrothal in chapter 6, concerning Shavuot.
    (Text from chapter 6 below) Remember, betrothal is the first of two steps in the marriage process. Betrothal in Hebrew is known as erusin or kiddushin. Betrothal legally binds the bride and the groom together in a marriage contract, except they do not physically live together. Historically, God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai (Jeremiah 2:2;Hosea 2:19-20). Whenever you accept the Messiah into your heart and life, you become betrothed to Him while living on the earth.

    4. A written document is drawn up, known as a ketubah. This betrothal contract is called in Hebrew, a shitre erusin.

    The ketubah is the marriage contract that states the bride price, the promises of the groom, and the rights of the bride. The word ketubah means "that which is written." The groom promised to work for her, to honor, support, and maintain her in truth, to provide food, clothing, and necessities, and to live together with her as husband and wife.

    The ketubah was the unalienable right of the bride. The ketubah must be executed and signed prior to the wedding ceremony. The bible is the believer's ketubah . All the promises that God provided for the believers in Messiah are legally ours, as it is written in 2nd Corinthians 1:20," For all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in Him Amen..."

    5.The bride must give her consent.
    As we saw in chapter 6 (below),which dealt with Shavuot (Pentecost),God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt.Sinai as stated in Jeremiah 2:2. Israel consented to the marriage proposal from God and said, "I do," as it is written in Exodus24:3. Likewise, the personal application (halacha) to those who desire the Messiah to come into their hearts and lives is to accept His invitation to do so by faith (emunah),as it is written in Romans 10:8-10:

    "What, then, does it say? The word is near you in your mouth and in your heart: that is the word about trust( emunah) which we proclaim, namely, that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that god raised Him from the dead, you will be delivered. For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgements and thus continues towards deliverance (Romans 10:8-10 Jewish New Testament version).

    So even today, to become the bride of Messiah you must still say "I do" to Him. (sorry Calvinists)

    6. Gifts were given to the bride and a cup called the cup of the covenant was shared between the bride and groom.
    The rite of betrothal (erusin) is completed when the groom gives something of value to the bride and she accepts it. The gift most often given today is the ring. When the groom places the ring on the bride's finger, the rite of betrothal is completed. This completed rite is known in the Hebrew as kiddushin, which means "sanctification."

    The gifts to the bride are symbols of love, commitment, and loyalty. The gift God gives to those who accept the Messiah is the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) (John 14:26; 15:26-27;Acts 2:38;2 Corinthians 1;21-22).

    When Yeshua ascended to heaven, He gave gifts to men(Ephesians 4:7-8).These gifts included righteousness(Romans 5:17-18),eternal life(Romans 6:23),grace (Romans 5:12,14-15),faith(Ephesians 2:8-9,and other spiritual gifts(1 Corinthians 12:1,4). These included wisdom, knowledge,healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues(1 Corinthians 12:8-11),as well as the gifts of helps and administration(1 Corinthians 12:28).

    In addition, at this time the cup of the covenant was shared and sealed between the bride and the groom with the drinking of the wine. In doing so, the couple drinks from a common cup. The cup is first given to the groom to sip, and then is given to the bride.

    This cup, known as the cup of the covenant is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33,as it is written, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, i will put my law in their inward parts, and write
    it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33
    Yeshua spoke of the cup of the New Covenant in Luke 22:20

    7. The bride had a mikvah (water immersion), which is a ritual of cleansing.
    Mikvah is a Hebrew word that means "pool" or "body of water." Mikvah is a ceremonial act of purification by the immersion in water. Indicates a separation from a former way to a new way. In the case of marriage, it indicates leaving an old life for a new life with your spouse (Genesis 2:23-24;Ephesians 5:31). Immersing in the mikvah is considered spiritual rebirth. The reason is that a mikvah has the power to change a person completely. Concerning the marriage to Israel at Mt.Sinai, God said in Ezekiel 16:8-9,as it is written,"...I sware unto thee, and entered into covenant with thee...and thou becamest Mine. Then washed I thee with water..." The washing, or immersion here refers to that of Israel before the people received the Torah when God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt.Sinai (Exodus 19:14-15).Yeshua spoke to the Pharisee, Nicodemus, that he must be born anew (immersed) to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:1-7)The believers in the Messiah are to be immersed in the name of Yeshua (Acts 19:4). The Holy Spirit is the immerser of God (Luke 3:16;Acts 1:5;11:15-16).

    8.The bridegroom departed, going back to his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber.
    At this point the bridegroom leaves for his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber for his bride. It was understood to be the man's duty to go away to be with his father, build a house, and prepare for the eventual wedding. Before he goes, though, he will make a statement to the bride. "I go to prepare a place for you; if I go, I will return again to you."

    This is the same statement Yeshua made in John 14:1-3 before He went to His father's house in heaven, as it is written:

    "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    John 14:1-3

    9. The bride was consecrated and set apart for a period of time while the bridegroom was away building the house.
    Before the bridegroom could go and get the bride, the groom's father had to be satisfied that every preparation had been made by the son. Only then could he give permission to the son to go and get the bride. In other words, while the bridegroom was working on the bridal chamber, it was the father who "okayed" the final bridal chamber. The bridegroom did not know when his father would declare the bridal chamber fit and send him to go get his bride. This is exactly what Yeshua is referring to in Mark 13:32-37
    (and Matthew 24:36).

    Meanwhile the bride was to wait eagerly for the return of the bridegroom. In the mind of the bride, the bridegroom could come at any time, even in the middle of the night or at midnight. Therefore she had to be ready at all times. Yeshua referred to this in Mark 13:32-37 and Matthew 25:1-13. While waiting eagerly for her bridegroom to come, the bride had to have thought to herself, "Is he really coming back for me? Is he really going to keep his word?" This was the thought that Peter answered in 2nd Peter 3:1-13.

    10. The bridegroom would return with a shout, "Behold ,the bridegroom comes" and the sound of the ram's horn(shofar)would be blown.
    The time of the return of the bridegroom was usually at midnight. When the bridegroom did come, he came with a shout(Matthew 25:6) and with the blowing of a shofar (trumpet)(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17;Revelation 4:1). The marriage between the bride and groom will take place under the chupah or wedding canopy. Since Heaven is a type of chupah, we can see that when Yeshua gives a shout for His bride, accompanied by the blowing of the shofar (trumpet), the marriage between Yeshua and His bride will take place in heaven.

    The marriage ceremony will have a sacred procession. for this reason, the bridegroom(Yeshua)will be led to the chupah first. When the bridegroom approaches the chupah , the cantor chants, "Blessed is he who comes." " Blessed is he who comes" is an idiomatic expression meaning "welcome."
    Yeshua said that he would not return for His bride until these words were said(Matthew 23:39). The groom is greeted like a king under the chupah , which is heaven.

    11. He would abduct his bride, usually in the middle of the night, to go to the bridal chamber where the marriage would be consummated. This is the full marriage, known in Hebrew as nesu'in.
    The bride and groom will go to the wedding chamber, or chadar in Hebrew, where the marriage will be consummated. They will stay in that wedding chamber for seven days, or a week. At the end of the seven days, the bride and groom will come out from the wedding chamber. This can be seen in Joel 2:16.

    The word week in Hebrew is shavuah. It means a "seven." It can mean seven days or seven years. An example of the Hebrew word for week( shavuah) meaning seven years can be found in Daniel 9:24,as it is written, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."and in 9:27,"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."

    The week referred to in Daniel 9:27is known to bible believers as the tribulation period. The Jewish people understand this time to be the birthpangs of the Messiah known in Hebrew eschatology as the Chevlai shel Mashiach.
    This is taken from Jeremiah30:5-7. From this we can see that the believers in the Messiah will be with the Messiah in heaven for His wedding while the earth will be experiencing the seven year tribulation period, or the Chevlai shel Mashiach.

    12. Finally, there would be a marriage supper for all the guests invited by the father of the bridegroom.
    The bride and groom would be in the bridal chamber for seven days. When the bride and the groom initially went into the wedding chamber, the friend of the bridegroom stood outside the door. All the assembled guests of the wedding gathered outside, waiting for the friend of the bridegroom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was relayed to him by the groom. John the Baptist referred to this in John 3:29. At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth (john 3:29).

    The marriage was consummated on the first night (Genesis 29:23). The bloodstained linen from this night was preserved. It was proof of the bride's virginity (Deuteronomy 22:13-21).
    On the wedding day, the bridegroom is seen as a king and the bride as a queen. During the consummation of the marriage, the bridegroom (Yeshua) will be crowned King over all the earth and the bride (the believers in Yeshua, the Messiah) will live with Him and rule with Him forever. The crowning of the King and the marriage can be seen in Isaiah 62:3-7. At the end of the week (seven year tribulation, or birth-pangs of the Messiah),the marriage supper will take place. After the marriage the bride and Groom will return to earth. Only the invited guests of the Father of the Groom (God the Father) will be present at the banquet meal. This can be seen in Revelation 19:7-16 and 20:4. Yeshua spoke of the marriage supper and the banquet in Luke 12:35-38 and Matthew 8:11.

    (Sorry, I don't remember the name of the author, but it wasn't me. Jack)
     
  10. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    No, just just a pre-ordained Jewish biblical type just like all their other feasts.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Thank you Brother JackRUS for some facts to study.

    Please contrast with like an Eastern Religion's illogical montra. For example:

    Another dispensational fairy tale?
     
  12. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Benjamin

    The Bible gives an explanation for "everything", even the trib.

    The "KEY" to understanding is knowing why these events occur, and why they pertain to certain people and not others.

    Not how/when they occur, but "WHY".

    When you're able to answer these questions, with scripture, your doctrine will be "RIGHT".
     
  13. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    No, just just a pre-ordained Jewish biblical type just like all their other feasts. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think he "GRASP" the importance of old Jewish Customs and their relationship to the NT.

    I've already point out it was a "BAD MISTAKE" to overlook these, but what do I know?? :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Da 9:27 And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

    and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

    Most people believe the "HE" is "Satan" because of what follows, but I always ask them to show one place where "HE" makes/keeps a covenant for "ONE WEEK", of course, they can't.

    That verse is proof of the "Pre trib Church rapture", but people don't read it for what it says, but what they "THINK".
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    John 14:1-3 does not saying that Christ shall come before tribulation. Tribulation is not mentioned in that passage. Also, marriage is not mentioned in that passage either. Christ told them of that passage, because He was soon leaving earth, return to his home in heaven. He told them, do not be worry, He told them, that Father's house, where He is, when He will come again, He will receive us where He is.

    I love John 14:1-3 is a beautiful promise for us. That we shall dwell in our Father's house - New Jerusalem when Christ shall come again.

    Also, Revelation chapter 21 tells us, New Jerusalem shall be decend from heaven, to land on the new earth, we shall dwell in there at Christ's coming. That is what I am looking forward for.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: "I love John 14:1-3 is a beautiful promise for us. That we shall dwell in our Father's house - New Jerusalem when Christ shall come again."

    John 14:1-3 says nothing of New Jerusalem.
    Revelation 20 says nothing of "our Father's
    house". [​IMG] no fair putting two verses
    together :(

    Have you ever read Romans 3:10-18?
    This quotes 5 different places in the Psalms and
    one scrupture in Isaiah.
    Paul added scriptures together, you add
    scriptures together -- why can't i add scriptures
    together?
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it strange? The dispensationalists insist that the Church age is a completely new dispensation yet they want to use Jewish customs to justify their error.
     
  17. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    The Jews followed God for 2 thousand years under the "law and Prophet", they have "FORGOTTEN" more about the OT than Christians will "EVER KNOW".

    Their "Customs" were "PATTERNED" after "Scripture", but like all the other patterns in the OT that "PREFIGURED", "FORESHADOWS" things in the NT, they didn't, and still don't, understand how these pattern "FORESHADOWED" coming events.

    When you forget the JEWS, you can forget the Bible. :eek: [​IMG]
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Me4Him,

    I ask you, shall we follow all about 400 laws today? Do we have a prophet today?

    Do you understand what Christ said, "It is finished" on the cross?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    The Jews followed God for 2 thousand years under the "law and Prophet", they have "FORGOTTEN" more about the OT than Christians will "EVER KNOW".

    Their "Customs" were "PATTERNED" after "Scripture", but like all the other patterns in the OT that "PREFIGURED", "FORESHADOWS" things in the NT, they didn't, and still don't, understand how these pattern "FORESHADOWED" coming events.

    When you forget the JEWS, you can forget the Bible. :eek: [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Here is the prooftext:

    Rom 3:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    What aduantage then hath the Iew?
    or what profit is there of Circumcision?
    2 Much euery way: chiefly, because that
    vnto them were committed the Oracles of God.
    3 For what if some did not beleeue? shall their
    vnbeliefe make the faith of God without effect?

    So it is said, so you aught to believe it. Amen.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Do you?

    Did the physical world end the Day Jesus
    died? NO. It kept chuggin' along.

    Did Jesus rise up from the dead that day?
    No, it was three days later.

    Did Jesus complete his perfect sacrifice that
    day? Yes That is what was completed the
    day Jesus died. Jesus died for our sins.
    Our salvation was to come later: when Jesus
    rose victorious over sin & the grave. Amen!
     
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