The sign of the son of man

Lastday

Candyjd,
Thanks for the challenge regarding the context for expecting Christ's SC.

I mean that only by extrapolation regarding fulfilled signs of the unknown Day...which Jesus applied to those "who will see all these things happening" at the End of Time ...will Believers "KNOW He is about to appear in glory! It occurs 3 or 4 days "after He has come in POWER through the 2 Prophets"!! They alone will anticipate that Day in advance because of what the Mighty Angel and Voice from heaven revealed...that they will experience "in 3 to 4 days after completing God's Mystery" prior to the Feast of Tabernacles!!!

Preterists refuse to acknowledge the last Day climaxes the 1260 Endtime days rather than AD 70! For even the Jews, "blinded until the fullness and times of the Gentiles are finished", will be among those who "see all these things happening and beg to escape and to stand before the Son of Man"!! It is impossible for this to happen before the Day of the Lord Signs...the Day to
include both the SIGN of His Parousia and HOUR of His coming (Erchomai)!!!

John the Apostle clearly proves that Jesus is still "coming in the flesh" (both by a present and perfect participle) and that too can only occur for those who witness the Signs of that Day as well as the Sign of His Presence like lightning and then to His Coming to "gather the elect"! Believers will be watching with baited breath, not even taking time to bathe lest He appears and they are seen naked!! Rev.16:15. We extrapolate, from the fulfillment of this context alone, the fact that we too cannot know the Day/Hour of His APPEARANCE in advance!! But the final Believers can know the Day of the Signs because it is written in the stars as well as in the prophecy of Daniel... just as Jesus indicated the "Day of of His Visitation", the Day of His Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, could have been determined in advance!!! Luke 19:41-44.

So His words concerning the unknown day are not directly applicable to us today. They are intended for Believers when they know His coming must be at any moment! "Even though Jesus said several times that the time of His coming is unknown to everyone except the Father", He meant it could only then be revealed by the Signs being fulfilled!! We must put ourselves in
their shoes rather than limit the text to AD 70 as proposed by Preterists!!!

No one will know for sure whether 2033 is the year unless the 2 Prophets
arrive on the last day of the Passover Week of Unleavened Bread; they will be killed exactly 1260 days later...after 180 weeks...on the final Wednesday before Saturday! In that year, the Feast of Tabs begins on Saturday...3 days after the Prophets finish demonstrating "God's Kingdom Power"!! But Jews will not know if He will APPEAR on Saturday or during the Twilight Hour on Sunday!!!

We remain prepared because we don't want Him to be "ashamed of us at His coming"! We can't expect to see the Signs until we know the End is Near; but only as the sun turns dark at noon in Israel and Americans see a "blood- red" moon and sun turn dark at early morning does the actual event occur!! Hosea may point to 2033 because it would be "two days" after Christ died!!!

There will be a total Lunar eclipse on the first day of the Feast of Tabs! No one knows yet...for only the 1260-day Endtime will pinpoint the last day!! Brother, with mutual respect, I am convinced, just as God used Joseph to prepare for survival of His people, He wants those suffering great tribulation to prepare and hope for survival and 2033 does meet the signs required!!!
Mel

 

Lastday

RAdam,
Quote:
On August 24, Post #6, you wrote the following:
The purpose of Christ's words is pretty clear: God will not tell us when the
Lord Jesus is coming back. Instead, He wants us to be always watching.
In Post #8 I responded:
Quote:
AMEN!
The purpose of Christ's cautioning words is to avoid setting the "day or hour"!
The reason is realizing that Israel's time changes as of their twilight Hour!!
They won't know if Christ's appearance is before or during that Hour!!!

I assumed that your words: "when Christ is coming" meant the same thing as not knowing the "day or hour"! I stuck with "day/hour" as the crux of your thoughts instead of asking what you meant by "when Christ is coming"
I answered candyjd about the time for the Rapture as follows:
Quote:
I know many identify the Elect as Jews. My objection to that is "the Jews are those who 'mourn' and are 'left behind' and who will be 'rescued' from death and from God's wrath"...during the Hour of Trial which, I think categorically, must be limited to exactly ONE HOUR of the "Day that comes like a thief on all mankind on all the face of all the earth"...a Day that ends at "twilight as the Lord comes with the Saints". Luke 21:35-36; Zech.14:5-9; I Thess.3:13. My objection to making the Elect refer to the Jews is that this "gathering happens on the Day Christ appears". On that Day Jesus promised to "raise up every/all believer(s)". John 6:38-40,44,54.
Please note that men will "see the sign of the Son of Man before they 'mourn'"
and before the Son of Man sends the angels to "gather the Elect upon the 4 winds", as Paul puts it, "unto the Synagogue unto our Lord Jesus in the sky".
RAdam still pressed me about claiming to know the day and hour:
Quote:
No man or woman can know the time of the coming of our Lord. It will be a thief in the night and we are to be in a state of watchfullness at all times.
That is a quick answer that overlooks the much stronger reason for being patient while many are being martyred. Those who are "watching" as of Rev.16:15 know
for certain the "Day and Hour" are imminent. Today we are "waiting" for His coming...until the signs in heaven show His coming must occur at "any moment"!

Pre-Tribbers have no basis to expect that Day apart from "signs causing men to faint from fear at what is coming suddenly, like a snare. It will be an Hour of Trial on all inhabitants on all the face of all the earth". The expectation of the Hour for our "rapture and rewards" awaits the Sign of the Son of Man!!

On that Day, 100 verses in Revelation will be fulfilled as the Jews realize the Son of Man is coming to redeem them (Luke 21:28) and to restore their earthly Kingdom. Luke 21:31. They will be jealous at seeing us coming with the Son of Man. Preterists eliminate the hope of both Christians and Jews from ever taking place in the future by denying we are coming in the flesh!!!
Mel

 

Lastday

Winman and HankD,
Preterists explain that "waiting for the adoption of our bodies", i.e., "the redemption of our bodies" refers to the New
Covenant by which we became members of the Body of Christ. Rom.8:23. But Paul speaks of this as "our hope".

In God's mind we have already been "glorified" - edoxasen - aorist indicative - past tense. The hope that our bodies of flesh will be glorified must continue as long as we "groan within these bodies of flesh...while waiting for the adoption
and the manifestation of the sons of God"!

I think I see why Asterisktom could be sucked into Preterism since he had not known what we know before he met you guys on BB. We believe in the resurrection of a
body of flesh, without blood, because Jesus referred to His resurrected body of flesh that was "seen and was touchable". And we know ours also will be "without blood because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". It seems impossible for him to accept or even dispute these facts!!
Asterisktom wrote:

Friends, my father, a Wesleyan Methodist minister, taught me at the age of
10, 80 years ago, that I could "know I had eternal life because of Romans
8:23-30 where, in God's sight, those who are justified are also glorified with the certain hope of receiving the "adoption...the redemption of our bodies". It
is difficult for me to understand how a learned expositor of Scripture hadn't
heard that "flesh and blood is different than flesh-and-bones". Do you have
any idea of how his explanation of the lack of knowledge makes any sense?!!!
Mel

 

Lastday

HankD,
Have you noticed, whenever he wants to evade/avoid a direct remark, Tom Riggle subtily sidesteps the issue. He could have tried to explain what he
thinks Jesus meant by promising to "raise up all believers on the last day"!

The same is true about his not having "heard" about the difference between
a resurrected body of "flesh and bones" and one that has no blood. He jumps
to Paul's reference about a body of "flesh/blood not inheriting the kingdom" without dealing with Jesus' resurrected body of "flesh and bones" which He
stated was "seeable and touchable". I repeat I can't understand his never
having heard about the difference between a body of "flesh/blood" and one of "flesh/bones". The meaning has been clear to me since I was a child of ten.
I think I see why Asterisktom could be sucked into Preterism since he had not known what we know before he met you guys on BB. We believe in the resurrection of a
body of flesh, without blood, because Jesus referred to His resurrected body of flesh that was "seen and was touchable". And we know ours also will be "without blood because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". It seems impossible for him to accept or even dispute these facts!!
Asterisktom wrote:

Mel

 

Lastday

HankD,
Brilliant:

This is brilliant since it applies to Pre-Tribbers as well as Preterists
The "last day" requires the bodily, physical glorification of every believer...in the likeness and image of Christ who is "coming in the flesh".

At the signs of this "last day", believers still don't know if Jesus will APPEAR on a Saturday or Sunday...should it occur during the Feast of Tabernacles in the year 2033/5794! At the "sign of the Son of Man", on the "last day", no
one will know whether Jesus will APPEAR before or during the Twilight Hour!!
Even the Remnant of unsaved Jews who read about their Messiah coming on that Day will see the Two Prophets arising from death and ascending above to heaven...before Jesus APPEARS...and not know if it is the "last day"!!!

At the first sound of the 7th Trumpet "on that day", Christ is crowned as King. At the second sound, "God will bring the souls of all the dead in Christ with Jesus...and He will gather the elect from the earth". At the third sound,
Jesus will "send the angels to gather us out of the sky's 4 winds from all the extremities above the globe...to meet Him at the "Synagogue in the sky"!

The Doctrine of Christ, according to the Apostle John, requires the belief that He is "coming in the flesh" and, according to Paul, requires that it is the fulfillment of our "hope, the Adoption at the resurrection of all the
Saints also coming in the flesh with Jesus
...for all the Saints are coming with Jesus at His PRESENCE"!!

To deny this Doctrine of Christ, John says, spreads the "spirit of anti-christ"!!!
Mel

 

Lastday

My Most Important Post in Concert with Winman and HankD:

Winman and HankD,

We are a trio holding quite exactly to the same point of view as far as I see.
I too have wondered if the Gog and Magog invaders in Ezekiel and Rev.20 might both refer to the rebellion under Satan at the end of the Millennium. There are two important factors that seem to clash under this possible interpretation.
Note two ideas that stand out for a prior fulfillment in the Ezekiel account:
ONE:
Prior to the invasion of the nations into Israel, Israel does'nt Know the Lord
TWO:
"Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. Ezek.38:23.
And the house of Israel will know I am the Lord their God FROM THAT DAY
ONWARD. And the nations will know the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity...and I HID MY FACE FROM THEM..." Ezek.39:22-24.

Why would it take 1000 years to convince the nations that God is the God of Israel? Will the nations NOT know this during the entire Millennial period??
Again, isn't the purpose for God's destruction of Gog and Magog first of all that ISRAEL herself might "know He is their God AFTER hiding His face from both Ephraim and Judah for 2000 years???

Brethren, I believe there will be two periods of so-called Mideast "peace" prior to the SC...one to convince Israel and the nations that God controls the outcome of their attempted destruction of Israel!

The first period of peace may be engineered by Mystery Babylon the Great which will "reign over the kings of earth for a short time" prior to the 70th 7. The movement to establish Mystery Babylon may itself involve ten years!!

Not only Israel, but her enemies, must be forced to realize Jehovah is on the side of Israel. Even the Jihadists need to be convinced that it is better to work from within the Harlot System like a Trojan Horse before they can hope to invade Israel after destroying the city of Babylon in "one hour with fire"!!!

I think we may have two new adherents to our view with Thomas15 saying
that the Covenant with Ephraim and Israel will be fulfilled 1000 years BEFORE
the "eternal" Davidic Covenant goes into effect at the end of the Millennium!

Thomas15 is suggesting that the New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah (Heb.8:8) is not "eternal" and therefore is not the same as the
Davidic Covenant for Israel and all the nations after the Millennium. For the Kingdom of David the word "eternal" occurs 4 times in Ezek.37:25-26!!

But the purpose of the New Covenant is that "all men, as well as Israel, might know the Lord...from the least to the greatest". Israel does NOT yet
know about this "New Covenant". They don't know the Old Covenant is "about to vanish". Heb.8:11-13; Jer.31:34!!!

Only at the start of the Millennium will God fulfill His promise to "remember their sins no more"! The promise that they will "know the Lord from that time onward"
requires that they realize He is about to restore them as "His People"!! That fact, AND the war of God and Magog, must apply to the start of the Millennial rule
of Israel over the nations...not to the Eternal State
under which the Davidic Covenant will go into effect!!!

It is during the Eternal State that the "Kings of the nations will bring their honor and glory into the New Jerusalem! And they will be healed by the leaves of the Tree of Life"...a condition that will exist even during the Millennium!! For 1000 years the nations must worship annually in the Jerusalem on earth or forfeit the rain they need for their crops!!!

"This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths...of Tabernacles...of the Ingathering".
Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14. Ezek.47:12. Zech.14:16-19.
Mel

 

Lastday

HankD,
Your point is good and insightful:

I believe the "knowledge of what they are doing" depends on a more subtle maneuver than that of a direct assault upon Israel prior to Satan's expulsion from
heaven and the consequent empowering of the Beast and False Prophet.

The enemies of Israel will work within the Harlot System centered at Rome,
IMO, until they find the opportunity to both undermine and confiscate the Network System before they "destroy the City in One Hour with Fire".

But first their enemies must be forced to realize that God is protecting Israel until He is ready to manifest His Kingdom Power through the Two Prophets from
heaven. This change in the method of operation by God and Satan will coincide with the war in heaven when Michael casts Satan from heaven to "make war
against the Jews in His anger and then continue against Christians in his wrath".
Rev.12:7 to Rev.13:18.
Mel