the sin nature - let's get deeper with it

I guess I am the one with out a sense of humor, I did miss the scent of it in your post.



I previously wrote:

You responded:

This has been my view the entire time, the difference is that I could not submit my will but my will until after God broke my human will, which was in full rebellion.

I wrote earlier:

You answered:

I disagree with this for reasons I have listed earlier. If any one man/woman/or child is born innocent, then choose to sin and thus become a sinner, then it is entirely possible for man to choose not to sin, this is not Biblical. Man is created one time in innocence. All others are born, they, through the miracle of childbirth are reproduced, they do possess the attributes of Adam as you say, now, however, these now include the sin nature. This is a nature that we add to even as Cain added to himself murder.

I did ask this question in sincerity.

I don't know unless Jesse and his wife were not married when David was conceived, but that is unlikely as David had at least 6 older male siblings. David's writings are for the most part considered by most scholars to be poetry, therefore in poetic form one can conceal the correct meaning . I do not believe that anyone is "formed in iniquity" because marriage is God's plan, and the womb is a sacred place. David was not different in essence that any other man . He was different in spirit than most other men in that God found him to be a man after his own heart. Even so, David sinned.


To this paragraph I answer:
David wrote the portions of Scripture attributed to him only as the Holy Spirit inspired him, to say the real meaning comes from David and is concealed even betrays that most scholars do not consider the Bible inspired, further, it betrays the deceit of human nature, if David is concealing his real meaning, why? A better answer is that David, like myself and every other individual is born in the sin-nature of Adam. You are right David is no different in essence than any other man, he was born in the same sin nature as all. And again you are right, at times he is ruled by this sin nature.

Frogman replied,

I stand beside this statement. Your statement above makes it possible for man to live without sin, I do not believe this possibility exists.

You wrote:

I don't remember skipping over anything. If I did forgive me, but just in case I am responding as such. In fact, I love to read and will read anything I can find in print. Your statements sometimes have things jump out at me that I believe are steeped in such error that I must answer those. One such incident is the thought that as descendants of Adam we inherit every attribute of his, except the sin nature. You surely can't believe this and still think you believe man is not capable to choose to not sin and thus have no need for Christ as savior.

Frogman replied,

 

Since I have never said this, it is hard for me to comprehend how I could believe it.

What I do believe is that the mechanisms that God put into man in the creation do not limit man to sin only. The mechanisms that enable man to sin are the same mechanisms that enable man to "be holy as I am holy". God would not have so commanded man if he had not built-into man that capability, and He would not have told us to if it were not possible under the strength He built in us to do so.

 

Yelsew,

You said: What I do believe is that the mechanisms that God put into man in the creation do not limit man to sin only

BUT, The Bible says this:

Genesis 6:5 - Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21 -The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.


Psalm 14:1 -The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. (Emphasis Mine)

Jeremiah 17:9 -"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?


Never does the Bible say that the heart is capable of doing good. Unless God is the one doing the work.

Many times, you might bring-up as others have, the Bible says to the Israelites "Choose this day whom you will serve...." or something to that effect.

However, the overall context already precludes the response of choosing to serve the Lord.

Remember: The Sacrificial system was Given BEFORE the "choice." We can see, even while Moses was on Sinai, that the Israelites sinned--and that grossly!

If, and this is a BIG IF, they were capable of not sinning, why did God not command them not to sin and leave it at that? We know that this did not happen. He gave His statutes and Laws and (THIS IS IMPORTANT) then He gave the payment for sin--namely the sacrificial system. Why? Because He knew the people would never be able to keep all the law and they needed the way to escape the punishment for their sin.

This demonstrates that they were not able to choose to follow God. Even if they followed somewhat, they would sin (even one sin) and that would ruin the whole thing!

BUT, it is important to recognize that even when God commands us to do something that is not possible, like choosing Him, it does not remove the responsibility from us. We are still responsible to the sin of not choosing God even if we are unable to choose.

Now, I know you'll not agree with most, some, or all of this....I've come to expect that!

I look forward to the impending discussion--that is if you deal with the issues and do not turn to the ad hominem.

Blessings,

Archangel

OOPS! I had to edit the post because I misspelled my moniker..........DUH!!! Stupid Angel!

 

I see you have not responded to my challenge above, Yelsew. You can't give me book, chapter and verse for your viewpoint, can you.

 

Well where do we begin? You have the same scriptures that I do, but you don't see in them that God ended his creation work after he created (a finished work) man. On the seventh day He rested. No more creation work, and no alterations.

So, when man sinned, he sinned with what was in him at the time he sinned, which we today have within us. When he was cast from the garden, he was not altered in any way. I have never found anything in scripture that specifically addresses this issue, and there is nothing in scripture that refutes it.

Creation was completed when Eve was made from the rib of Adam. At the time Adam and Eve were created there was sin in the world, the Serpent, but man was sinless because man had not yet sinned, and in fact man had not been tempted. Man had been given only one commandment at that time, and that was to not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden, lest he surely die.

The only law that man had to deal with was to not eat from only one of the many trees in the garden. We don't have any idea how long in time it may have been from receipt of the commandment to the deception and the sin. Through the sin of disobedience to God, Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil. The result was that now they had that knowledge within them, as we all do. We are told that man recognized his nakedness and deliberately attempted to cover up, and that God sought him out, but he was hiding.

Guilty! Adam and Eve were cast from the garden after God stated that Eve would have pain in Childbirth. Since Eve had never experienced childbirth, how is it that she could understand what that meant? Since Adam had never 'tilled the soil' he too had no understanding. But they both soon learned what God was saying.

There is nothing recorded that says that God altered either of them from their original created form, and that their children are like them even today.

I suppose that if I posted scriptures I would post Genesis chapters 1 - 4. There does not seem to be any other scripture that discusses the Creation, especially about any alterations to man. There are many scriptures that speak to the idea of "before the foundation of the world, and that sin existed before the foundation of the world. But it was not until man was a finished creation, that sin could enter man, and that was made sin because of the "law of God".

 

Yelsew,

We are born with a sin nature. You know that. So you are saying that Adam was created with a sin nature. You are saying that God created Adam flawed in nature just as we are born flawed in nature. You are wrong and are saying something about God that is not true. Almighty God saw that His creation was very good after He completed the creation of man. He did not create a flawed creature like we are today.

 

Here we go again!

What do you mean by "good"?

If you mean made perfect as God is perfect, you are fooling yourself!

If you mean made good according to God's plan you are getting close!

 

Yelsew,

Do you believe that God created a flawed creature in Adam? Yes or no? Your posts indicate that your answer would be "yes", and I submit you need an in-depth course on the characteristics and nature of Almighty God. I am afraid you have tried to make God to be in your image.

 

I believe that God made man to God's specification, therefore when the creation was completed, man met God's specification and was therefore very good!

Man was not made holy, for only God is holy.

When God finished with Adam, Adam was innocent of Sin, meaning that man had not yet sinned. However, man had in him the ability to sin, God put it there.

God is not subject to being surprised, therefore He was not surprized that man sinned. Why are you?

 

Having the ability to sin does not require having a sin nature like you and I are born with.

 

One cannot sin without a sin nature, even Adam! Righteousness nature does not allow one to sin!

 

Wrong, Yelsew, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...

Adam was not created righteous, he was created innocent. I do hope you understand the difference.

 

Shucks, Ken, you said the same thing I said!

 

Wrong, Yelsew, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...

Adam was created innocent and he was capable of sinning. If one is innocent then he does not have a sin nature. If one has a sin nature, he is not innocent. Do you understand?

 

Hogwash! that is doublespeak!

 

As a Razorback fan, I thank you.

I am sorry, Yelsew, that trying to communicate with you using English words is such a difficult task. Frankly, I do not know how else to interact in this debate with you when you do not accept the common definitions of words.

 

What is sin nature if not the nature with which one sins? Adam sinned, therefore he had to have had a sin nature.

Innocent means that one is not guilty, or experienced!

 

As a Razorback fan, I thank you.

I am sorry, Yelsew, that trying to communicate with you using English words is such a difficult task. Frankly, I do not know how else to interact in this debate with you when you do not accept the common definitions of words. </font>[/QUOTE]Here, let me try a few of the alternatives:

Borkese:

Edem ves nut creeted reeghteuoos, he-a ves creeted innucent. I du hupe-a yuoo understund zee deefffference-a.

Jive:

Adam wuz not created righteous, he wuz created innocent. ah' do hope ya' dig it de difference. What it is, Mama!

Valley-girl:

Adam was not created righteous, oh, baby, he was like, ya know, created innocent. I do hope you understand thuh difference.

Pig-latin:

Adamway asway otnay eatedcray ighteousray, ehay asway eatedcray innocentway. Iway oday opehay youay understandway ethay ifferenceday.

Elmer Fudd:

Adam was not cweated wighteous, he was cweated innocent. I do hope you undewstand the diffewence.

Hacker:

ADAM WAS NOT CREATED RIHGTTEOUZ, HE WAS CREATED INNCOENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!11~~~~~~ i do hope u underatandt he d1fference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moron:

Adam was not cratid riteeous, duuhhhh, he was cratid innocent. I do hope you undehstand the, uhhh, diffehess.

Any of those make sense, Yelsew?

 

Cute!

They show that you have the propensity to stupidity!

 

Ah Yes! When all else fails, revert to the ad hominem

Blessings,

Archangel