the sin nature

Just as I have written—humanism, humanism, humanism—everyone of you are arguing from human wisdom rather than accepting the truth explicitly taught in the word of God that we sin when we succumb to temptation, and that we succumb to temptation because all human beings inherit the part of the human makeup that the New Testament writers called the σαρχ. The Bible does NOT say that we sin because we inherited a sinful nature; it says that we sin when we succumb to temptation, and that we succumb to temptation because of our σαρχ. Pleases quit posting the reasoning of secular humanism and stick to what the Bible says is the causes of sin in human beings.

 

OK, first of all there is nothing humanistic in watching little kids exhibit what comes naturally! Secondly, James tells us that "each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed." (1:14)

One is the witness of a fallen creation and the other of the Bible.

They agree.

It's sin nature.

Humanism says we are good at heart!

 

Sounds like Craig would agree with Pelagius:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagius

What a surprise!

(Heavy sarcasm)

 

The error of Pelagius is just one of many errors that Craig spouts here. How a heretic of this magnitude is tolerated by the moderators is a testimony to thier patience.

 

Helen wrote,

Christ died in our place for our sin, not our human nature. And once being justified by God by grace through faith, we receive the Holy Spirit who enables us to say “yes” to God and “no” to the devil and his temptations by choosing to walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh ( Greek = σαρχ).

Rom 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Bible says that God condemned in the flesh ( Greek = σαρχ). It does NOT say that Jesus is the cure for the human nature.

The conflict throughout the New Testament is not a conflict between two natures; it is a conflict between the flesh and the Spirit beginning in Matt. 26:41 and ending at 1 Peter 4:6, with twenty-four more such verses in between. How much more proof from the Bible do you want?

Matt. 26:41. "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.".
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(24 more verses, see especially those in Galatians)
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1 Peter 4:6. For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

And if any of you still believes that the flesh is the old nature, the Bible says,

1 John 4:1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3. and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

(All Scriptures quoted are from the NASB, 1995)

 

Helen wrote,

Christ died in our place for our sin, not our human nature. And once being justified by God by grace through faith, we receive the Holy Spirit who enables us to say “yes” to God and “no” to the devil and his temptations by choosing to walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh ( Greek = σαρχ).

Rom 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Bible says that God condemned in the flesh ( Greek = σαρχ). It does NOT say that Jesus is the cure for the human nature.

The conflict throughout the New Testament is not a conflict between two natures; it is a conflict between the flesh and the Spirit beginning in Matt. 26:41 and ending at 1 Peter 4:6, with twenty-four more such verses in between. How much more proof from the Bible do you want?

Matt. 26:41. "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.".
.
.

(24 more verses, see especially those in Galatians)
.
.

1 Peter 4:6. For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

And if any of you still believes that the flesh is the old nature, the Bible says,

1 John 4:1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3. and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

(All Scriptures quoted are from the NASB, 1995)

 

I dont think Christ is the cure for sin nature. That implies that there is no sin nature after one accepts Christ. Rather, Christ is the treatment for sin nature. You still have it, but you overcome it. The only cure for the sin nature is death.

 

I believe in original sin, as my posts in the thread more than abundantly prove, and the false, libelous, and vicious ad hominem attacks that some are posting in this thread is abundant proof of that doctrine!

 

Helen wrote,

Helen is correct here at least to the extent that the word “humanism,” in our modern day, is much more often used in that manner. A better word to express the nature of the doctrine that all men inherited a sin nature from Adam as a consequence of his fall would be “rationalism.”

 

I dont think Christ is the cure for sin nature. That implies that there is no sin nature after one accepts Christ. Rather, Christ is the treatment for sin nature. You still have it, but you overcome it. The only cure for the sin nature is death. </font>[/QUOTE]That's right about death, John, but death means separation, not oblivion and non-existence. I was separated from my sin nature since, when I was immersed into Christ Jesus, I was immersed into His death. (Romans 6:3) "For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. the life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Gal. 2:19-20)

Before, I did not care if I offended God. That was my old nature. Now I care very, very deeply about not offending Him, even though I still do sin. Before I didn't care if I sinned. Now I don't want to. There has been a total change in my very deepest nature, despite the fact that I still live in the flesh and am subject to temptations and still sometimes sin. The point is, I don't WANT to.

And I don't care what Craig calls it, but I know I had a nature before that was different from my nature now, and I know Christ is the difference.

Christ 'treated' my sin nature by putting it to death -- separating it from me. He took away something that was me and put in something that was of Himself.

I call what was in me, and what WAS me, sin nature. I call what happened to me a new birth, and I call that which He put into me of Himself the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Fighting over words does not interest me. That is what happened to me.

 

That simply isn't good enough.

God not only cares what we do but why we do it.
The greatest, most benevolent, most generous works done by men are still sin if they are done for the glory of man or even the good of man absent the primary reason of being for the glory of God.

 

BTW, when 1 Corinthians talks about the "natural man" and his inability to discern the things of God... it is speaking of his inherent nature, not necessarily choices he has made of sins he has committed.

 

Isaiah 64:6 -- All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Edit: That was to back up Scott's post two posts ago. He posted again before I got this up!

 

Very true, Helen. My point was that one still has a sin nature after being born again, but has overcome it, via the separation you refer to. But we still have a sin nature, and, being the imperfect human beings we are, occaisionally give in to it from time to time. That's what I was getting at when I said Christ is the treatment for our sin nature (there is no cure).

Never said it was good enough. I agree with you completely. I was simply pointing out that those things exist, and we have a responsibility to choose them over the negative.

 

I like what A. Clarke has to say in regards to the "natural man". I believe this refers to what we call the sin nature...

 

I disagree with that. Animals act according to instinct. They are not rebellious by nature. Frightened of people, perhaps, but not consciously rebellious.

We are consciously rebellious.

And there are plenty of pagans who do 'have respect' for spiritual and eternal things -- they are just believing the lie about them.

 

Helen wrote,

This is outrageously false! Thousands of species of animals have been trained to obey their masters. And anyone who has experience in training dogs know that the disposition of dogs varies widely—some of them respond very happily to training, some are very stubborn and just look at you, others deliberately and willfully disobey and make training them nearly impossible.

 

Adam Clarke wrote those words in his comments on 1 Cor. 2:14, posted in context below:

12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13. which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul uses the expression “natural man” only once in his writings, so the only internal data that we have to evaluate what he meant by his use of that expression is the context in which it appears. It is very important to notice that Paul is here comparing the “natural man” with the man who is governed by the Holy Spirit. In other places in his epistles, Paul use the term “flesh” to describe the part of man that is in opposition to the Holy Spirit working in his life,

Rom. 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7. because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8. and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13. for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Gal 5:16. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Gal. 6:8. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Therefore, based upon the word of God rather than upon the speculations of men, we can see that the “natural man” is the man who is governed by the flesh, and that the spiritual man is the man who is governed by the Spirit.

Some may ask, “What about the “carnal” Christian? Isn’t he a man who is still dominated by his sinful nature?” In every place in the KJV New Testament where we find the word carnal it is a translation of the cognate adjective of the Greek word σαρκ which is translated “flesh” in the KJV New Testament. Jesus had the part of man that the Bible calls the flesh (σαρχ), but he did not have a sinful nature—and we don’t either. We have the same flesh that Jesus had and by the power of the Holy Spirit he overcame the temptations of the flesh every single time, and he died on the cross that our sins could be forgiven and that we could be justified and receive the same Holy Spirit to overcome the sins of the flesh. No where in the Bible are we promised victory over a sin nature, but we are promised victory over the flesh if we walk in the Spirit,

Gal 5:16. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Can it be any wonder that Satan would want to confuse people into believing that they have a sin nature since the Bible does not promise victory of a sin nature, but over the flesh? Can it be any wonder that many Christians today are being defeated by Satan by his slight of hand in getting us to use non-biblical expressions for which there are no Bible promises?

And if any of you still believes that the flesh is the old nature, the Bible says,

1 John 4:1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3. and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

1 Pet. 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Rom. 1:3. concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,


(All Scriptures quoted are from the NASB, 1995)

 

test post

 

What 'cha testing???