The Sinners Prayer

But that's not what you told them :laugh: .

 

???what r u talking about????

 

Just read up 2 more posts and you will see.

 

How do they take their doubts to the cross? By praying?

How did they come to Christ? Through prayer?

How does one "call upon the name of the Lord?"Through prayer?

How does one "confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus"?

Tim, I understand what you're saying, but you're taking this too far and removing the one and only event that one can go to and say, "It was here that I confessed Christ."

 

Please explain.

 

Good post... I am glad you understand what I am saying...
And I would not want to remove prayer... Of course I wouldn't do that...
If you read a previous post of mine I say to them to "tell God what is in their heart"... That is prayer...

But I have quit having them repeat a prayer that I say...unless they need the help.

Some just open up, and it is amazing to hear the Holy Spirit pray through them... Pure innocent prayers, from pure babes in Christ...

Others it is harder... So I help them...

But what I am against is telling them if they are doubting their salvation to go back to the time they prayed... because... if they just remembered they prayed, say, at age 5, but don't remember what they prayed, They could have been deceived...

When someone doubts his or her salvation, I do not let them leave until I know they understand what true salvation is... and I think you would do the same... I start the approach as if they are not saved, and go from there.... That way, we will know for sure when they leave...
It could be Satan casting doubt... or it could be they are under conviction for the first time... how would YOU tell the difference?

Is there a sure fire way to know for sure if someone is doubting if they are saved, to know if Satan is causing the doubt, or the Holy Ghost is causing conviction?

If I knew for sure that they were saved at the time they said they prayed, I wouldn't have a problem sending them back... but as of right now... I cannot be 100% sure... so I treat them as if the Holy Ghost is dealing with them.... That is the safest way to go, IMO...

If I am wrong, then what harm have I done by reminding them of the plan of Salvation, And encouraging them to Believe and repent of their sins?

If you know you are saved, by all means when Satan comes along, let him know you are a child of God... and take him back to where you got saved...

But when witnessing in the community, and you come to a house that you know the people do not live a Godly life, never come to church, cuss like a sailor, drink like a ....uh hmmm.... BAPTIST :laugh:
And they say, I'm saved.. I prayed a prayer when I was 5 and asked Jesus into my heart....

What would you do Aaron?
I might be persuaded to follow your lead...

 

Tim,

Don't blame them regarding your next comments.

Try Rev 3:20 -- "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." The "heart" is not mentioned but that is where the concept comes from. And most of your "flock" probably knows it. Is there something wrong with teaching repentant, believing people to do this?

These can be faked or rationalized ("The heart is deceitful and..."), friend. Two examples: 1) the Phaisees. 2) the "God fearers" like Cornelius who nevertheless did not have Christ or the Spirit yet.

I say a verbal confession coming from belief in the heart (Rom 10:9-10) along with the witness of the Spirit (as webdog said) are your best proofs.

skypair

 

That is not talking about personal salvation, that is written to a church that was keeping Christ on the outside...
Evangelists have too long taken this verse out of context, and now people believe it is about Salvation... but look closely, it is written to believers already...

 

Tim, it's my view that that verse is to an apostate church. If you read the whole letter, the church was without white robes and without white raiment and eyesight, both symbols of salvation. But maybe this would make a good thread all on it's own.

Good night--have a good day! (Hmm, I'll have to think about that one....) :sleeping_2:

 

Is Aaron the only one whose curiosity I have even aroused, with my above post, before I comment on it later today?

Ed

 

skypair, Tiny Tim has the best of this argument.

I do agree that we must confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus (Romans 10:9). The question is, what do we say?

First, I have come to the point where I don't think it's necessary for a lost sinner to ask God to save him. God has already promised to do so through faith.

In looking at the scriptures, I find that these two words are sufficient, if the gospel has been preached and taught properly:

"I believe."

It may be expressed as a prayer, such as "Lord, I believe."
It may be expressed as a statement similar to the Ethiopian eunuch's: "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:37)

I emphasize that the gospel must be preached or taught. Proper groundwork must be laid. The proper questions must be asked. The main one is this: "Do you believe this?"

Sometimes, God deal with people when they are alone. Thus, one's response to that wooing would be like a conversation with God---a prayer.

So where's the expression of repentance, you ask? It is in those words, "I believe." Remember Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. His exhortation to the Greeks was, "God commands you to repent." Their response? Some believed.

God is not boxed in by magic words or magic formulas, or by our less-than-perfect witnessing methods. You think you need more than two words? Have at it.

I still shudder, though, when I think of some people I know who claim to be Christians, but don't give evidence. Their claim is built on this: "Well, I said the prayer." If you use it, be careful, be very careful.

 

Ed, I agree partly and not sure partly.

You're correct, this is not a sinner's prayer for salvation. However, I'm not so sure it's an acknowledgement of unbelief.

Here's my take: The publican's prayer is one that we as believers can pray as well. The people who are most conscious of their sinfulness are believers, seems to me. That's why nearly every prayer you hear from a believer includes, "forgive us our sins." And that's why I think Jesus declared the publican justified. He was a believer when he prayed.

 

I think we all agree to some extent here...
Belief is what is important for Salvation...

If a person believes and prays, they are saved.
If a person believes, but does not pray a "sinner's prayer" They are saved..

If someone says, they MUST pray a prayer to be saved, that is adding a work to salvation. Just like those who believe you must be baptized...

If a person wants to pray, GREAT!!! I would encourage them to do so...And even help them if they need it...

But please, please, emphasize belief in Christ's atonement acts on Calvary. Because if they pray without believing, their prayers did no good...

Just like if a person gets baptized without believing, they go down a dry lost man... and comes up a wet lost man.

I think what is all boils down to is this:
Make sure when you lead someone to the Lord, you give him the whole Gospel. Don't be so anxious to get to the prayer, you skip the most important things:

They are lost in need of a Savior
If they don't get saved, they will go to Hell
Christ came to Save them
He did this through his sinless life, death, burial, and resurrection.

If they want to pray, (which I think is a natural occurance) after they believe the Gospel... encourage them to do so...

But point out the prayer did not save them, belief in the atoning work of Christ did.

 

Tim, you said it better than I could!

I was taught to use the Roman Road and the Sinner's prayer. The people who taught me were taught that. And the ones before them were taught that. And so on.

So that's all we ever knew. I taught it to other people. It took a life-changing experience during mission trip in a country 8,000 miles from home that challenged me to measure everything against the scriptures that we do and say in presenting the gospel. That's when I began to re-evaluate, and arrived at where I am today.

That, and the realization that 300 of our missing church members probably prayed that prayer at some point.

 

1Jo 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psa 55:16As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.

Psa 109:26Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy

Psa 119:146I cried unto thee; save me, and I shall keep thy testimonies.


Jer 17:14¶Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou [art] my praise.

 

It sure is sportin' of you to say that!

Hold it... if it's boiling wet that you get, I think I'd rather be a Methodist.

And if you're only on 1, 2, or 3, when Jesus appears and starts taking you up with him, don't skip any step, just shout as you leave, "Tough luck-- maybe I could have talked a little faster, but-- that's life!"

 

That won't be a problem. He will gather his elect from all over the world. None will be missed.

 

Romans 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


While I do lead people into the sinner prayer I do not believe the prayer saves but the whats in the heart that lead to the prayer. Someone who is saved will be joyful to tell it.

 

So is saying you must believe.

When it comes right down to it, those who are born again simply become the sons of God, Jn 1:13. It just happens. That's it. We have just as much a say in it as we did in our first birth. Repentance and prayer are the fruit of regeneration, not the other way around.

You can't take this to say that prayer is meaningless or ineffectual in the life of a Christian, not the least of which is his new birth.

Tim, taking the approach that you're taking will not do anything to prevent false conversions. In fact, if I were a new believer, your precautions would practically snatch the Word right out of my ears. My approach is to "believe all things" 1 Cor. 13:7, until there is some instance of unfaithfulness.

 

Please elaborate....