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Featured The stepping stones of Justification

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Nov 30, 2020.

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  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Almost all Christians would claim to believe we were justified by faith, and perhaps quote Romans 3:28, which says we are justified by faith and not by the works of the Law. If pressed, many Christians would define “works of the law” as the actions we take to conform to the requirements of the Law, rather than what the “law” actually accomplishes, which is to make us aware of our sin and lead us to Christ.

    So lets back up and ask the question, justified by whose faith? Does our faith justify us? If we took a poll, would not a large group, perhaps even a majority, say our faith justifies us? But that would be a works based salvation would it not. Ah but you say faith is not a work.

    Maybe we should back up again and consider “justified by whom?” Were we justified by what we did or by what Christ did on the cross? The free gift of justification to life was provided by Christ on the cross, Romans 5:18. So it was Christ’s faithfulness, even unto death on the cross, which provided the propitiation for the whole world. So then the question becomes, how did we “receive” that gift or have that gift applied to us individually?

    So it would seem, then that our faith in Christ provides access to Christ’s free gift of justification by the grace of God. But does that too miss the mark? I think so. Would not our faith in effect “save us” then and make us the actual architect of our salvation?

    So if our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Well thought out and well articulated.

    It is an excellent THEORY.

    Where I see its weakness is the focus on what WE think. It is not OUR opinions that matter. It is only GOD's opinion that decides such an issue.

    So does God say, somewhere in His word, that "God must credit our faith as righteousness"?
    That is the question needed to fit "with all scripture."
     
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No, of course God is not required to credit our faith as righteousness. We have several examples, such as the second and third soils of Matthew 13, where the faith in view was not credited. OTOH, it does say in scripture that God does credit our faith, a point some deny (Romans 4:4-5; Romans 4:23-24)
     
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  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Good response.
    (good scriptural support for your point).
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Yes, our faith saves us. It is our faith, not because we have it by nature, but because it is given to us, but there is no such thing as universal propitiation. There is no blanket propitiation just waiting for people to be inducted into it. Just as the High Priest represented those whose gems he wore on his breastplate, the elect, so our High Priest represented His elect.

    The call goes out to all, but the sheep know the Shepherd's voice.

    So, anyway. You're still saying there is something we have by nature that unlocks the grace of God. You're just moving that key further in, and moving God further out.
     
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  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Good scriptural imagery to illustrate the concept from John 10. :Thumbsup
     
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  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    What would your response be to his comment about Romans 4:

    [Romans 4:4-5 NASB] 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,​

    [Romans 4:23-24 NASB] 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,​

    ... that "our faith" is a gift from God, or do you have some other thought?
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The stepping stones to justification do not include the fiction of "the gift of faith via irresistible grace." If God had instilled the "gift of faith" He would not need to credit our faith as righteousness. No answer will be forthcoming.
     
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  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    To me it's as simple as it can be. We do not save our selves even though this is a Calvinist accusation. Faith is not counted as such until it has been tested. I believe God judges who has real faith and who doesn't.
    Some men can say they believe and change there minds 5 minutes latter. We believe that we might be saved, as in;
    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
    Belief is very necessary.
    .
    This tells us that we believe that we might be saved not that we will be saved, of course we hope to be saved. A justification requires a judgement by none other than Christ Him Self. I consider this an inspection of us to make sure we really believe. The Gospel tells us that we must be as a little child. With no ego just wonderment and curiosity. Just a child like acceptance.
    To be this Humble the Lord convicts us of Him Self and our sins. We our selves could never be so humbled with out the action of the Holy Spirit. The whole process is of the Lord even the cause of our believing.
    Yet some still do not believe. We are not saved against our wills. A willing mind is accepted.
    2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
    MB
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is the philosophy of a Calvinist. Notice there is no scripture backing up his erroneous claim Just his philosophical opinion,
    MB
     
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Dose it really make any sense if the call goes out to all that it's not possible that any hear except the imagined elect of the Calvinist doctrine. Your funny
    MB
     
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say that your faith is a gift from God in those verses?. Philosophy at work again is it? Notice that it is the man who believes and that it is his faith. Not a so called gift of faith.
    MB
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    He doesn't say anything wrong about faith being counted as righteousness, it's his application of the concepts that are erroneous, asserting that "our faith" is something that we have by nature.

    Belief is not an act, but a state of being. One can choose to believe in Christ as well he can choose to believe in Santa Claus. He either believes or he doesn't. And if that state of being is a product of nature, then those who possess it are better by nature than those who do not, and election is not according to God's will and purposes, but according to some inherent worth of the one to whom forgiveness is offered.

    Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
     
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  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I would not bore you with the tedium of proffering the citations you already know so well. Don't bore me with vapid rebuttals. :Thumbsup
     
    #14 Aaron, Dec 1, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Translation: Do not show me facts, my mind is made up, and even if Truth Himself told me to change, I would bury my head in the sand....
     
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  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That is a VERY inaccurate translation. Not even up to the standards of a bad paraphrase. More like a JW Hatchet Job on John 1.
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    What does this line mean?
    (I understood everything else in the post except this.)
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So let's examine it one piece at a time:

    I agree, it is simple to me as well. God saves whom He pleases, because HE IS GOD and we are not. We try and stumble, but God never fails. It ain't rocket science.
     
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  19. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Calvinists tend to make that accuisation because NON-Calvinists tend to talk about what THEY DO in the salvation process and we accept the biblical truth that "JESUS SAVES."

    (Monergism is the fancy term).
     
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Where does scripture state this?
     
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