The Stream Promoting False Gospel

Dr. Bob · Sep 26, 2004

A friend (Bill Gray) wrote me and questioned a new cultic view being promoted:

I have been finding a new, glossy, very professional looking magazine, The Stream, which claims to be a Christian magazine. But, it is the teachings of a cult church. Inside, it states that it is a publication of Living Stream Ministry. When, in reality, it is propagating the doctrinal teachings of the cult church, The Local Church, which was brought to America from China and Taiwan by a person calling himself Witness Lee in the mid 1950s. He came teaching the doctrines of a person called Watchman Nee.

What makes this a cult church? They teach that you and I can become a God-man, equal to God, who because of the incarnation of Jesus Christ --- became a God-man. They also teach that Jesus is God the Father; and that through Jesus' incarnation, God was lowered to being a God-man --- and by following Jesus, we can become a God-man, on the same level as God the Father.

I have taken the following statement directly from a copy of "The Stream" magazine (page 14, Volume 24, Number 1, March 2004).

"God's eternal desire is that He would mingle Himself with us to make each of us a God-man. God's intention is to make each of us not merely a man of God but a God-man --- a man who is mingled with God. . . We have an imbalanced idea of what God is to us. We frequently think that God is high, great, and far-off from us. Our idea is that we must bow down and prostrate ourselves before Him. This is a mistaken concept. The Scriptures tell us clearly that immediately after God created man, He presented Himself to man in the form of the tree of life (Gen. 2:9). God came to man as the tree of life not to be outwardly worshipped by man but to be eaten by man."

In my Bible, Genesis 2:9 does not tell me that God became the tree of life. In my Bible (NASB), Genesis 2:9 reads, "Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." I am not sure how anyone would twist that to mean that God BECAME the tree of life --- and that by eating the tree of life, we become God-men.

You may ask why I make such a large issue of this. It is because, all Christians, especially we mature Christians, are responsible for and to the new and immature Christian --- to see that they are truly fed the Gospel, the True Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ --- taken directly from His word, the Bible --- with no distortions. Just as we are responsible for making sure our children are fed the proper nourishment so that their physical bodies will grow strong and healthy; we mature Christians are responsible for making sure that those young in Christ are fed the correct and true Gospel, that they may grow strong and healthy in Christ.
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Thoughts?

Lacy Evans · Sep 27, 2004

To implicate Watchman Nee in cultic practices simply because he supposedly taught Witness Lee at some point, is wrong. I have a whole shelf of Nee's work (Mostly early writings)and for the most part I find him to be a very Godly man and his works to be very edifying.

Lacy

Pete Richert · Sep 27, 2004

Watchman Nee isn't exactly a cult leader, though he had some strange beliefs. Witness Lee and the local Church are definitly a cult. The Local Church is famous for hiding its denomination in its recruiting, publications, etc. I even got a NT Study Bible written by them without ever knowing it was Local Church (until I investigated who did the notes). Good thing I checked NO when they asked if I wanted someone to follow up with me. BTW, don't say the Local Church is a cult, they are also famous for suing people who claim they are a cult.

Marcia · Sep 27, 2004

Pete Richert is right. Watchman Nee has some very strange and troubling teachings; some of these were passed on to Witness Lee who founded the Local Church and taught a mystical brand of Christianity with practices like "pray-reading." Many of Lee's ideas came from Nee. The Local Church is cultic and they do sue some people who say so.

Here are some links with info:
Info on the Local Church
http://www.lcinfo.org/

Below excerpt is on Watchman Nee from http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n00.html#neew

If you scroll down a bit, you'll find Watchman Nee which has links to further info

Widely read Christian author with some controversial teachings. Nee required blanket, unquestioning obedience. He also taught that all Christians must have a "Covering" - a person who has delegated authority, must be obeyed unconditionally, and who must be imitated. This "covering" does not stop with matters of faith and doctrine, but also extends to personal and secular matters (such as choice of employment, place to live, whether or not to marry, etc.) In addition, Nee taught there should only be one congregation in each city. Whenever Nee's followers moved into a city, they proclaimed themselves as the only church approved by God in that city. . . Under the leadership of Nee's disciple and co-worker, Witness Lee, his house church movement, the Local Church (known to it's followers as "The Lord's Recovery") later also became controversial.
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More links on Nee
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n01.html
http://www.xenos.org/essays/nee1.htm

Detailed info on The Local Church with links
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l40.html

Frogman · Sep 28, 2004

This sounds similar to what an elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS told me they believe, similar, but not exactly the same.

Bro. Dallas

BTW, I believe the tree of life typifies Christ. Is that cultic?

Craigbythesea · Sep 28, 2004

BTW, I believe the tree of life typifies Christ. Is that cultic?
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It's not non-Christian cultic, but it is out of the ballpark.

Craigbythesea · Sep 28, 2004

To implicate Watchman Nee in cultic practices simply because he supposedly taught Witness Lee at some point, is wrong.
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Amen!

christopherbarny · Sep 28, 2004

I've never heard of Witness Lee or Watchman Lee. I do know that I am supposed to beware of false prophets. Everything that I hear regarding spiritual truth gets filtered through my Bibles, regardless of the source. There are a lot of magazines, books, newsletters, and the like that are deceptive. I stay away from all of them. Temptation comes from many sources. Remember, Satan tried using scripture to lead Jesus astray!

Frogman · Sep 28, 2004

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> BTW, I believe the tree of life typifies Christ. Is that cultic?
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It's not non-Christian cultic, but it is out of the ballpark. [/QUOTE]A homerun?

rufus · Sep 28, 2004

Watchman Nee was a Christian mystic.

APuritanMindset · Sep 28, 2004

That view seems similar to something that is believed by Paul Crouch on TBN. Kenneth Copeland, and the Crouches promote something about how they are all little gods. That God makes no distinction between Himself and man and that once we're Christians, we become God too.

Craigbythesea · Sep 28, 2004

A homerun?
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No, a theological absurdity.

Marcia · Sep 28, 2004

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To implicate Watchman Nee in cultic practices simply because he supposedly taught Witness Lee at some point, is wrong.
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Amen! [/QUOTE]I agree Nee should not be implicated because of Witness Lee's beliefs, but he can be implicated for his own beliefs and teachings. Also, we can implicate Nee in cultic practices if he taught them, whether to Witness Lee or to anyone else. As the links show, Nee did have clear cultic and aberrant teachings.

Craigbythesea · Sep 28, 2004

As the links show, Nee did have clear cultic and aberrant teachings.
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Before I burn the man at the stake, I would like to see quotes, in context, from his writings that prove that he taught doctrines of a non-Christian cultic kind.

Marcia · Sep 29, 2004

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As the links show, Nee did have clear cultic and aberrant teachings.
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Before I burn the man at the stake, I would like to see quotes, in context, from his writings that prove that he taught doctrines of a non-Christian cultic kind. [/QUOTE]No one is talking about burning anyone at the stake. If you read the links, there is enough info to create at least a concern. If you can't accept what anyone says about Nee, then check Nee's books for yourself. The fact that many sound Christians have investigated him and found huge problems should go for something, but if that means nothing to you, Craig, then read through a couple of Nee's books.

Dr. Bob · Sep 29, 2004

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
I would like to see quotes, in context, from his writings that prove that he taught doctrines of a non-Christian cultic kind.
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Wise. Same way I felt.

So I started a thread to that end some time ago. Feel free to come by and look at the links and the evangelical apologists who have raised eyebrows with the doctrines of Nee.

Craigbythesea · Sep 29, 2004

No one is talking about burning anyone at the stake. If you read the links, there is enough info to create at least a concern. If you can't accept what anyone says about Nee, then check Nee's books for yourself. The fact that many sound Christians have investigated him and found huge problems should go for something, but if that means nothing to you, Craig, then read through a couple of Nee's books.
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I have been "concerned" about the teachings of Watchman Nee for 35 years. I read the links that were posted and they were nothing but opinions from men who believe differently. Don't run a man down unless you have solid evidence that he deserves it. Where are the actual quotes in context from Nee’s writings? Self-righteousness in the name of theological correctness has no place in a Christian community.

freeatlast · Sep 29, 2004

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
A friend (Bill Gray) wrote me and questioned a new cultic view being promoted: <blockquote>quote:<hr />I have been finding a new, glossy, very professional looking magazine, The Stream, which claims to be a Christian magazine. But, it is the teachings of a cult church. Inside, it states that it is a publication of Living Stream Ministry. When, in reality, it is propagating the doctrinal teachings of the cult church, The Local Church, which was brought to America from China and Taiwan by a person calling himself Witness Lee in the mid 1950s. He came teaching the doctrines of a person called Watchman Nee.

What makes this a cult church? They teach that you and I can become a God-man, equal to God, who because of the incarnation of Jesus Christ --- became a God-man. They also teach that Jesus is God the Father; and that through Jesus' incarnation, God was lowered to being a God-man --- and by following Jesus, we can become a God-man, on the same level as God the Father.

I have taken the following statement directly from a copy of "The Stream" magazine (page 14, Volume 24, Number 1, March 2004).

"God's eternal desire is that He would mingle Himself with us to make each of us a God-man. God's intention is to make each of us not merely a man of God but a God-man --- a man who is mingled with God. . . We have an imbalanced idea of what God is to us. We frequently think that God is high, great, and far-off from us. Our idea is that we must bow down and prostrate ourselves before Him. This is a mistaken concept. The Scriptures tell us clearly that immediately after God created man, He presented Himself to man in the form of the tree of life (Gen. 2:9). God came to man as the tree of life not to be outwardly worshipped by man but to be eaten by man."

In my Bible, Genesis 2:9 does not tell me that God became the tree of life. In my Bible (NASB), Genesis 2:9 reads, "Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." I am not sure how anyone would twist that to mean that God BECAME the tree of life --- and that by eating the tree of life, we become God-men.

You may ask why I make such a large issue of this. It is because, all Christians, especially we mature Christians, are responsible for and to the new and immature Christian --- to see that they are truly fed the Gospel, the True Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ --- taken directly from His word, the Bible --- with no distortions. Just as we are responsible for making sure our children are fed the proper nourishment so that their physical bodies will grow strong and healthy; we mature Christians are responsible for making sure that those young in Christ are fed the correct and true Gospel, that they may grow strong and healthy in Christ.
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Thoughts? [/QUOTE]I have a question here. I have on several occasions posted something from an article and got rebuked by a moderator and even had the post edited. Why is not the ground level when a mod posts an article or part of one which is copy righted? I am always told to go through the channels but it NEVER does any good. It looks like a old buddy system. Can any understanding be given? I realize that you want this to be done in private but in private it gets covered up and excuses made. Why is the ground rules not the same for everyone?

Dr. Bob · Sep 29, 2004

To give a few paragraphs in direct quotation from an article with the source is done all the time. It is part of a scholarly debate. To take more than a short quotation or not give credit/link can be plagiarism and that is jumped on regularly.

I am sorry if something of yours was clipped. Perhaps it fell into that latter category??

And remember, the ground isn't level. Some are more equal that others. Get over it and learn to cope. [tongue-in-cheek icon inserted here]

Marcia · Sep 29, 2004

Excerpt of testimony of former Local Church member:

I started to grow uncomfortable with a trumpeting self-glorification and verbal attacks on the outside Christian world, characteristics that sometimes showed up in meetings. Members, it seemed to me, were of the opinion that most of Christianity had serious problems, and that their group, and only their group, had the solutions. It was even claimed that their organization constituted "God's sole move on the earth today," effectively that God was doing all His important work solely through their movement. And so the prevailing attitude seemed to be one of haughty contempt, a "we are in harmony with God's plan but you aren't, so ha ha ha" sort of attitude. Blatant expressions of this attitude were not extremely common, but they did happen regularly, and gradually, this began to bother me in spirit.

. . . As an example, members of the "Local Church" tend to decry "denominations" as against God's intentions. They see denominations as unnecessarily dividing the church on doctrinal or practical grounds. To an extent, they are correct; the plethora of denominations, sects, and independent groups currently tiling the Christian scene is at best confusing, and at worst a serious hinderance to the testimony of Christian unity. . .

The group's systematic theology came into play only tangentially for the most part. . . Nonetheless, there are significant points of difference from mainstream thought, and although the group will publicly emphasize their similarities when in view of outsiders, their behavior is quite different behind closed doors. Their differences seem to be a point of pride to them, the element which marks their way as special and their group as chosen.

An extreme emphasis is placed on their unique practices of "pray-reading" and "calling on the Lord," sometimes almost to the point of seeing them as requirements (or at least necessary results) of salvation, in the same way as an extreme charismatic might see speaking in tongues as a necessary result of salvation. The group has an odd, almost personifying concept of the metaphors of eating, drinking and breathing the Word of God as described in the Bible, and it advocates the unusual idea of the spiritual part of man, the "human spirit" as it is termed, as the only direct connection between man and God. The "Local Church" does believe in a form of human deification, perhaps not as strong as in some other pseudo-Christian groups, but off-kilter enough to attract the criticism of many mainstream theologians. The group also believes in a salvation hierarchy similar to a Jehovah's Witness doctrine, in which a group of mature Christians, termed "overcomers" (and thought to be comprised mostly, but not exclusively, of members of their movement) are raptured before the masses or otherwise given special privileges during end-times.
From
http://www.lcinfo.org/?page=writings/testimonies/azuma/part3
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Home page of site giving various sources of info on the Local Church:
http://www.lcinfo.org/?page=home

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